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Trying to match their play

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Trying to match their play - Tue Apr 05, 2011, 05:54 PM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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for months I have preached that players who are passive who do not play in same patterns that pros have a far less chance of winning. For that reason I have strived hard to change my stats to resemble good players. For the first time in many months I have reached that goal or nearly so .

To show how successful this was I was able to immediately lose $35.00 in one session .

Last edited by XXChris123; Wed Apr 06, 2011 at 05:11 AM..
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 07:10 PM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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by pressing CTL + you can enlarge image its hard to see
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 07:12 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
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not working for me
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 07:24 PM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
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Unreadabe for me too.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 07:51 PM
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It appears that you need to open up a bit and raise pre-flop more. These are two very important parts of poker Chris. I doen't matter who the pro is. Raising with just 11% of your hands pre. Tells me that your game is entirely to tight for the games in which you play.

Just my thoughts at a quick glance.

GL
JT
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 08:14 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
command + enlarges it for you Mac users.

You want to keep you preflop raises within 3% of hands played like the Pro has.
Interesting to see the Pro is cbetting a lot less than expected.

So example

25/22 34/31 18/15

I think you need to open up a bit more to be success ful at 6max.
You a tad on the tight side at 18%(I think thats what it is or 19).Aim for 25 vpip and see how that works out.
I love 6max but want to get my roll up a bit before moving into 6max.I tend to be the most aggressive player since the image pays off more.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 09:37 PM
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Hey Chris,


I am trying to do the same thing over the past 6 weeks playing 6max at the micro tables (1cent / 2cent then 2 cent / 5cent after bank roll hit 120 dollars). I was able to take my 90 dollar bank roll to just over 200 dollars. Then in 1 weeks time i took several major hits and am at 122 bucks.

I had stopped the cash games and began pouring over my stats and really looking into my equity on every street when i have a major win or loss to see what went wrong.

Make sure you are not just betting or checking for stats. Look for a reason to take an action. Based on the range of the villain, and your equity in the hand. I was around 25/20 (VPIP/PFR) and close to 75% cbetting on the flop. I found I got involved in pots when stack sizes were too small to do so. I also found I was cbetting way to much against players who just don't ever want to fold!

Long story short, I think stats are important, but remember to look deeper at the situation before taking an action.


-Aummadour
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:35 PM
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I agree but I want my stats to be more like winning players than players who dont win
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 12:01 AM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
command + enlarges it for you Mac users.

You want to keep you preflop raises within 3% of hands played like the Pro has.
Interesting to see the Pro is cbetting a lot less than expected.

So example

25/22 34/31 18/15

I think you need to open up a bit more to be success ful at 6max.
You a tad on the tight side at 18%(I think thats what it is or 19).Aim for 25 vpip and see how that works out.
I love 6max but want to get my roll up a bit before moving into 6max.I tend to be the most aggressive player since the image pays off more.
The pro's vpip and pfr are 6% apart, not 3%. Mine runs 4.5-5% personally, it's under 2 from MP but 5.5 from the button. If you're only 3% from the button you're not taking advantage of your position often enough in deep stacked scenarios where flatting a raise will create an spr of 10-15+ and the villain is exploitable post flop.

Also c-bet in the 60-70% range is fine, the pro is right there at 60%. If you're cbetting any more than 70 that's usually going to start causing you more problems than it's worth.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 04:27 AM
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autodafe20's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXChris123 View Post
for months I have preached that players who are passive who do not play in same patterns that pros have a far less chance of winning.
That's a fairly broad and meaningless statement. Which pros, Phil Helmuth, Ilsidur1, Daniel Negrenau, Tom Dwan, Nanonoko?
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 05:10 AM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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it is not allowed to post another players stats
so it is merely a poker pro and my stats
who cares who it is
its a pro
most pros are similar
.
.
also it is not meaningless
If a pro or pros C bet 60 % and I C bet 98% then I need to adjust my C bet
same goes for preflop raises and aggression and how often you voluntarily enter the pot
.
.
merely matching their stats should enable a player to improve their game
why ????
.
.
because the law of large numbers is the same for everyone
yet only the pros have cracked the code
.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Last edited by XXChris123; Wed Apr 06, 2011 at 05:19 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 12:02 PM
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Got to be careful comparing your stats with a pro's stats at the limit you play. They might have best strategy to make the most money at that limit, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to profit. Just, they profit the most. Adjusting might be a problem at first if they play a different style than you. If your a TAG and the pro is a LAG, then adjust one or two stats might put you in the middle of the two strategies. Maybe a bad place to be. Also, if your not comfortable with the pro's style then you might be better off playing your own style, even if it is technically a little less profitable.

No doubt there is insight to be gained comparing your stats to a pro a your limit. Just keep in mind it is just one person, and many others show a profit as well.

Of course, if you think their strategy looks the same as yours, but your stats are simply sub-optimal, then this is a perfect way to fine tune your strategy.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 01:47 PM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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nice reply rocker
the rest of you can kiss my shiny butt !!!!
just kidding'


I find a lot of times when anyone posts about a subject that to a large degree the replies fill in the holes
In my case I often agree with a lot of the replies if not all of them
to some one just learning the replies are often as good or better knowledge than the original
start of the topic
except when it s my topic
then its my beginning that is always the best !@!!!!!!!!!
...
I got to say I do copy various pros
in some cases it makes my game more profitable
but more stressful
in other cases and this is a surprise
it takes away the stress and adds profit

last night was the most fun I ever had in a session



Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

above was last night
but heres another big one

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
.
.
.

Last edited by XXChris123; Wed Apr 06, 2011 at 01:50 PM..
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:00 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
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Thanks Chris.

Nice couple hands there. I can't believe kibloucha folded the river that is just hilarious.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:27 PM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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Posts: 1,512
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I was down $35 or so after a great start I was very happy then bummer down $35 or more.
Slowly bit by bit I recovered till I was down $7
then bam down $29 again
then recovered again till finally down $3.47
then I ran into like 3 bad beats and was down like $39 again or maybe it was $29 down
I was angry
5 hours or more hard work gone
I said to a friend in ventrilo I am pissed
I am taking the gloves off
it took me 1000 hands out of a 5762 hand session to recover and profit
actually 800 hands to recover
during that time I set aside my theories kinda
or in fact merged them all together
and literally went into attack mode on all 10 of my tables
it wound up being the most fun I ever had
I had many wins which were $10 plus hmmmm let me check
pot sizes where I won hands on 2cent/5cent
$22.49
$25.44
$19.70
$19.73
$15.65
$12.77
$12.78
$11.63

it was a wild ride
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:57 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXChris123 View Post
.
merely matching their stats should enable a player to improve their game
Not correct, and this is exactly why I keep suggesting people do not focus on forcing their stats into some number they believe represents a succesful stat. Focus on decisions and plugging leaks.

I know regs who have similar tag type stats to this pro, who are winning players, and I have seen others with similar stats who are not winning players. It has nothing to do with the law of large numbers.

To see why, let's look at your cbet example. The pro cbets 60% and if you cbet 98% you suggest to adjust your cbet % down to align with the pros (I agree btw that 98% is horrible and such a player has a pretty big leak). Here's the difference: HOW are you going to adjust? You can obviously force your cbet number down to be closer to 60%, and out of 100 hands both you and the pro may cbet 60 of them, but you may not be making the same decisions in the process. For instance, perhaps if you each were the preflop raiser in the same 100 scenarios, you and the pro would only end up cbetting 35 of the same hands. You may cbet 25 hands the pro did not, and the pro cbet 25 hands you did not. You both end up cbetting 60 out of 100 hands, but will have very different end results as you've made a lot of different decisions along the way.

This is why trying to force your stats to be something new, instead of addressing the underlying problems or leaks that have caused your current stats to be what they are, is not going to result in a vast improvement in your game.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 05:26 PM
(#17)
XXChris123's Avatar
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Posts: 1,512
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this is the beauty of having others reply
I agree totally
its just that I cant spend hours writing 20 pages
all that aside
comparing my stats to winners may point out areas to look at in my own game
hopefully then I begin to understand why a player sees 25% of pots and why I only see 18% of flops
in this case law of large numbers and law of averages applies to that
for instance
if the only hands I play are AA and KK
then the times I enter the pot are X%
now if I decide to inprove number or percent of time I enter the pot to more closely resemble someone who makes a profit I now decide to play
AA KK QQ JJ TT and 99
before I was seeing only
AA KK
now I see
AA KK QQ JJ TT and 99
law of large numbers and law of averages would show that pairs are dealt so many times per 1000 hands
so by going from playing 2 pairs to playing 6 pairs means my percentage of seeing flop should increase dramatically

you may not see the tie ins of law of averages and law of large numbers
I see many tie ins

and im quirky enough that I would enjoy reading about them even if I didnt play poker
 

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