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AQ versus AK - Was I a Donk for Calling this Raise?

 
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AQ versus AK - Was I a Donk for Calling this Raise? - Wed Apr 06, 2011, 01:51 AM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Was at this table for about an hour - this person's really loose and was calling pre-raise flops with hands like J2o, only to flop trips that were hitting full house on the river, etc - super lucky it seemed. But they basically played straight - raised and called when they made a hand; their bets and calls were proportional to their hand strength, etc.

I put them on AK or KK even before they went all-in ... just something about their call - it was so fast. But I still called - it was only .46 extra cents, but I feel like such a fish/donkey/calling-station, whatever. I guess my larger question, one that I kind of touched on in another thread is that I'm wondering whether I'm losing too many chips when I have second-best hand ...


Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Apr 06, 2011 at 01:59 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:10 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Nah...

Based on your read info, the villain easily could have held Ax.

You start with the initial raise, sizing it pretty well for the strength of your hand: not so big you cannot muck to a big RR and not so small as to scare away lessor holdings.

You hit the flop big, and your half pot bet is very nice for keeping in the rag aces or gut shot draws. So nothing wrong there. It is entirely "correct" you maintain the betting "lead".

By the river, you are likely to have a "customer" with a weaker Ace, so your pot size bet here is just fine. And once you've made that pot sized bet, there is no way you can fold this for the remaining 40-some cents...

End result: Nothing wrong at all, just a "cooler".
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:11 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
Players have patterns to them,like the guy that plays aggressive with air but when he has the nuts he is passive trying to trap and donks the river.
So you would have a better read on a loose player than any one else at the table since they are just playing more hands,which is a obvious statment.

So his flat preflop may mean strength based on your reads but you have to put him on one of two hands to beat you AK or KK.Some bad players just love to trap with AA or KK and end up getting burnt over and over and wondering why it keeps happening to them.You should have a note or seen how he plays premium pairs by now.Very few players flat with premium pairs,so you can knock KK off his range.Most fish raise AK like it is the mortal nuts and the fact he calls with it is very misleading.Sometimes fish are crafty with out knowing it and this hand would play out the same way 9/10 for me.
Im putting him allin and stacking him more often than not with AQ and they will show up with Acerag at best most of the time at this lvl.

The big issue in this hand is how you watched him play in the last 1/2 hour or more.
Note taking about how he plays strong hands and is he passive preflop but aggressive post flop?
Those type of things pay out large down the road.
Note taking makes me hyper focus in on the hand as well.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 02:19 AM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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Unless you have seen him flat call with AK or KK at any point before this hand, there is no way you can put him on those hands. You can expect to run into AQ, AJ, or AT much more often in this situation unless given a specific reason to think otherwise.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 07:16 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Nah...

Based on your read info, the villain easily could have held Ax.

You start with the initial raise, sizing it pretty well for the strength of your hand: not so big you cannot muck to a big RR and not so small as to scare away lessor holdings.

You hit the flop big, and your half pot bet is very nice for keeping in the rag aces or gut shot draws. So nothing wrong there. It is entirely "correct" you maintain the betting "lead".

By the river, you are likely to have a "customer" with a weaker Ace, so your pot size bet here is just fine. And once you've made that pot sized bet, there is no way you can fold this for the remaining 40-some cents...

End result: Nothing wrong at all, just a "cooler".
The turn bet was a little weird, wasn't it? I started to get that suspicion I might be beat and started to go off the rails. I guess if there was uncertainty about where I stood, I could have accomplished the same thing by continuing to make half-pot raises without exposing myself to so much risk ... raised 50 cents instead of the $1.

Then if they still responded to my raise by going all-in, I wouldn't have been thinking oh it's just 46 cents, I'd be thinking woah a whole dollar!

I guess $1 was fine, but 50 cents might have been better ... I read that between the lines

Thx so much for the feedback - it helped a lot!
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 07:45 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Players have patterns to them,like the guy that plays aggressive with air but when he has the nuts he is passive trying to trap and donks the river.
So you would have a better read on a loose player than any one else at the table since they are just playing more hands,which is a obvious statment.

So his flat preflop may mean strength based on your reads but you have to put him on one of two hands to beat you AK or KK.Some bad players just love to trap with AA or KK and end up getting burnt over and over and wondering why it keeps happening to them.You should have a note or seen how he plays premium pairs by now.Very few players flat with premium pairs,so you can knock KK off his range.Most fish raise AK like it is the mortal nuts and the fact he calls with it is very misleading.Sometimes fish are crafty with out knowing it and this hand would play out the same way 9/10 for me.
Im putting him allin and stacking him more often than not with AQ and they will show up with Acerag at best most of the time at this lvl.

The big issue in this hand is how you watched him play in the last 1/2 hour or more.
Note taking about how he plays strong hands and is he passive preflop but aggressive post flop?
Those type of things pay out large down the road.
Note taking makes me hyper focus in on the hand as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Unless you have seen him flat call with AK or KK at any point before this hand, there is no way you can put him on those hands. You can expect to run into AQ, AJ, or AT much more often in this situation unless given a specific reason to think otherwise.
Oh yeah, that's true - not likely it was KK based on pre-flop call. I'd seen them raise a pot to 4xBB once, but nobody called. So probably that's how they played a monster hand. With hands like ATs, AQo they were limping in, and once they had AK on the button and raised 2 times the BB.

Also, they were loose but not at all aggressive - post-flop they'd put a little thought into whether or not to call, and when they did raise the bets were smallish and generally only when it was highly likely they had the best hand. And I'd never seen them reraise anybody, but most of their hands weren't close.

I had that 'gut' feeling like they had AK, but now that I read your posts, maybe if I had taken the time to articulate patterns the way they're getting discussed now, I'd have had more confidence in my read. Like my reasons for thinking they had AK in the first post ("just something about their call") was basically all that was going through my head at the time, but on some other level I guess that 'sense' was underpinned by the knowledge I articulated in my last paragraph (that the villain was loose but passive, methodical and conservative, never reraises).

If I had been thinking that clearly during the hand (and been betting better), probably this would have been an easy laydown to make. I'll have to try better thinking through my reasoning.

Thx, your feedback helped a lot too!!
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 09:42 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
The turn bet was a little weird, wasn't it? I started to get that suspicion I might be beat and started to go off the rails. I guess if there was uncertainty about where I stood, I could have accomplished the same thing by continuing to make half-pot raises without exposing myself to so much risk ... raised 50 cents instead of the $1.

Then if they still responded to my raise by going all-in, I wouldn't have been thinking oh it's just 46 cents, I'd be thinking woah a whole dollar!

I guess $1 was fine, but 50 cents might have been better ... I read that between the lines

Thx so much for the feedback - it helped a lot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
The turn bet was a little weird, wasn't it? I started to get that suspicion I might be beat and started to go off the rails. I guess if there was uncertainty about where I stood, I could have accomplished the same thing by continuing to make half-pot raises without exposing myself to so much risk ... raised 50 cents instead of the $1.

Then if they still responded to my raise by going all-in, I wouldn't have been thinking oh it's just 46 cents, I'd be thinking woah a whole dollar!

I guess $1 was fine, but 50 cents might have been better ... I read that between the lines

Thx so much for the feedback - it helped a lot!
To illustrate the fact that $1 is really pretty much the "same" as 50c here on the turn bet...

You bet 50c, the pot goes to $1.50.
He then Shoves $1 (roughly).

Why are you thinking "whoa, a whole dollar?"

I'd be thinking: 2.5 to 1, and he only beats me with AK/KK/A4? SURE!

The reaosn why I do not think your $1 turn bet is "off" is because if you ARE ahead, you are forcing him to pay max price NOW. I'm not saying 50c or 75c isn't decent too, but the size of the pot and the value of your hand pretty much committs you to the rest of his chips on either of those bets as well...see?
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 11:22 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
To illustrate the fact that $1 is really pretty much the "same" as 50c here on the turn bet...

You bet 50c, the pot goes to $1.50.
He then Shoves $1 (roughly).

Why are you thinking "whoa, a whole dollar?"
I'd be thinking: 2.5 to 1, and he only beats me with AK/KK/A4? SURE!

The reaosn why I do not think your $1 turn bet is "off" is because if you ARE ahead, you are forcing him to pay max price NOW. I'm not saying 50c or 75c isn't decent too, but the size of the pot and the value of your hand pretty much committs you to the rest of his chips on either of those bets as well...see?
I guess I'm only imagining me thinking that in my imaginary scenario, where I'm hoping to not be such a calling station.

In reality, I'm calling that raise no matter what. Probably up to the table max, I wouldn't be able to let that go.

I guess the villain's pot-size should have been the determining criteria? My Tournament Indicator doesn't work in cash games, so I guess I better learn to do the math on my own ... eeek! Like mathematically there's a point where I would have no longer been getting the right pot odds to call, and in that case it would have been more profitable in the long-run to fold, right? The cut-off might be something like say $4 or whatever ...

And then I guess with that basic mathematical framework, then I could overlay it with my 'read certainty' ... you know like how confident am I about my read the villain likely has the AK and not AJ. If I'm feeling like it seems highly likely the villain really does have the AK, maybe then I could take that basic $4 cut-off (or whatever it is according to the math) and knock it down to $3 to incorporate my read or something?

D'oh ... this is getting complicated!!

Wow, lots to think about - thanks for coming back and adding that bit about the math though because I was thinking about how I probably would have called a raise no matter what the size. I guess that was my real concern - not so much the 46 cents extra in this case, but just the sense that my calls should be having a little more thought to them if only I knew what.

Thx so much for the extra info!! Lots to think about!
 
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Thu Apr 07, 2011, 01:22 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean
The reaosn why I do not think your $1 turn bet is "off" is because if you ARE ahead, you are forcing him to pay max price NOW.
Max price for what? He's extremely unlikely to be drawing.

His range consists largely of Ax and Kx, with a few pocket pairs and floats (maybe on those last 2).

I like a smaller bet on the turn, not the bigger bet. The reason is it ensures Kx will get themselves committed drawing dead, and it gives weaker made hands like pocket pairs a chance to make another mistake as well. And, on the off chance he's floating you, it invites him to make a mistake thinking he can fold you out.

If he's got Ax it doesn't matter what you bet, the money is going in either now or on the river. No villain fitting the description you gave is folding trip aces, not even if you put a gun to his head. Since we are always getting stacks here vs. Ax no matter what we do, try and extract value from his weaker made hands, primarily Kx. .50c is much more likely to convince Kx to tag along and he won't have enough left to fold his K on the river... Kx is only getting away from it on the turn if at all.
 

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