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Did my mistake make for a bad play

 
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Did my mistake make for a bad play - Wed Apr 06, 2011, 06:19 PM
(#1)
badbuddie99's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 25
BronzeStar
Just to give some back story the villain here for about one and a half orbits had been playing loose tight (I know thats not the right term) and would limp call the blind, fold to most raises only calling with premium hands. At the time of this hand on this table my hands dealt to flops seen ratio was about 23% playing ABC with 3x 4x preflop raise being the norm and had spent some time on advertising my plays with big hands and showing my cards to lay downs (I know this is not the recomended play but sometimes I find it useful)



Here is how I see my hand (and my possible mistake). After his call of both pre and post flop I had put him on an over cards or mid to high pair (88 - TT) at best. My bet on the turn was meant to be a half pot bet but I hit the wrong button that was my big mistake. I read his all-in as a jam to my aparent weakness and my call was based mainly on this as I could not see him holding two pair and I think he would have played a set differently. The idea of him calling to the straight draw to didn't even enter my mind.

My question is this. Was my call to his all-in a mistake because of how easily he could been holding a set though in my mind if he was playing the set he would have raised my flop bet or called my turn bet to jam on the river I did not put him on having pocket 4s as it is my belief that he would have folded to an earlier bet and should I have kept more open the the possable straight
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 06:44 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
By the time he goes allin you only need to call off 24 more cents.
You cant fold now that you have invested so much in the pot.
What you should have done is thought this through by looking at the chip stacks preflop.

Villian open limps into the pot and you raise but you did not raise the proper amount.
You need to take the Blinds times that by 3 and add a blind for every limper.
So 6 cents is to low and it should be 10 cents.This comes off strong and will either get that shortstack to shove or fold his garbage hand.As soon as the big blind calls your raise no one in that hand is folding preflop.

Flop is to weak as well.You are looking like a player just going through the motions and not trying to build the pot.It comes off some what passive and hoping they fold.This is often why people float,waiting for you to show weakness,since they have position on you.
So cbet the flop like you did but make it 60-75% of pot to build it.

Turn can be played two ways as long as you know you are calling or getting called allin here.
You put him allin if you think he is drawing,you let him put himself in if you think he will bluff if checked to.Shortstacks will often jam Ace high if they smell weakness.

So unlucky river.

Just work on your bet sizing and how much to put in the pot with multiple limpers.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 06:49 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
test
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 07:23 PM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
When he called your flop bet you can assume he has something here. Either a medium overpair, top pair, two pair, or a set. You were too invested in the pot to fold once he shoved the turn with his small stack so the call was good. Like cookies said, preflop you should have raised more. Or, if you feel really uncomfortable with JJ out of position a limp would not have been terrible. If limping, your pretty much hoping to flop a set though. Unlucky river, but not terribly so really. He had 10 outs.
 
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Wed Apr 06, 2011, 09:24 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I think the term you are searching for is that he was playing "Loose/Passive".

I gather this from your statement that he was limping in a lot, folding his limps frequently to raises, and calling (rather than raising) if he had a "good" hand. Am I right?

Well...

It looks to me like you ran into a variation on a "small ball" player, who loves to see flops, and play "fit or fold" poker. These sorts of folks, especially the "bad" ones, are relying on playing a LOT of flops in hopes of hitting one "hard" enough to stack an opponent. When done well, this can be a VERY dangerous style to play against...

On to the Hand:

What you need to consider in a pot such as this is the "effective stack sizes" you are playing against. The presence of that 50c stack, plus the button limper, means that just about ANY raise you make here with your JJ will tend to build the pot to the point where you must begin to seriously think about "committment". I say this because:

You raise a pretty "standard" amount of 3BB plus 1 BB for each limper (to 10c), and say the 50c stack calls; the button calls as well. With the pot now just over 30c, and the shortest stack in the pot holding "just" 40c, it would probably take a pretty "scary" board indeed for you to fold if you make ANY C-Bet on the flop, right? I mean if you C-Bet 20c, are you FOLDING to a short stack all-in for 20c more into a 60c pot?

I don't THINK so!

I bring this point up not because you made any particular "mistake" here, but because whenever you have a short stack in the pot against you, you really need to start considering your "committment" to the strength of your hand. Ideally, you want to make your following decisions in these spots as "simple" as possible...see?

I do agree with the other posters that perhaps your pre-flop raise over 2 limpers is a bit "small". Your hand strength is plenty good enough to support a standard raise oop, but it really is NOT so strong you can afford to play "tricky" with a raise sizing designed to induce bluffs. So I'd be more inclined to go with a raise to 10c or 12c here with the JJ, as this makes your LATER decisions against that short stack (should he call) a LOT easier.

Next...

On the flop you do not do ANYTHING "wrong" at all, so long as you are willing to "stand" against a shove by the short stack after making the half pot C-Bet. Your half pot bet means the pot is now 36c, and if the short stack shoves you will be looking at calling only 32c in a pot of 80c.
Sure, there ARE 3 straight cards on board, but the time to think about a set or straight possibly being there is BEFORE you make that C-Bet.

Based on your "read statements" above, You can probably put this guy on a Range consisting of: Any pp 22-AA, AK only. This gives you about 57% "equity" versus that range.

Even if we go with what might be more "likely" (that this guy was a fit or fold player on a LOT wider range than you suspect), and give him a HIGHLY "beneficial" range of: 23/34/45/67, Any pp 22-AA (only Str draws, Made straights, and pairs+), you still hold just UNDER 50% equity (49.781%). Obviously, if he would call in on hands as weak as 23, then we are leaving off a lot of other hands he may have called in on (any 6 for example) in that "beneficial" range. I only put that range thought out there to show you what is probably a "worst case" range for you, see?

This all means you are probably pretty "ok" with C-Betting, then calling a shove by the short stack in this situation.

Finally...

Having made the decision to C-Bet the flop, and keeping in mind that decision "commits" you for the rest of the short stacks chips, I do not really "understand" what you are attempting to do with your bet on the turn; are you betting to "induce" a bluff with 4 straight cards now on the board? Are you "betting for value"? Are you betting to bluff?

If you are betting to induce, then that card is likely to be AS scary for an opponent as it is for you. You've already passed a committment point regrding his stack any way, so why not fore-go the "tricky" play of inducing a bluff, and simply bet for value?

If you are betting for value, why so small? You got rid of the bigger stacks on the flop, and you are committed for this guy's entire stack anyway, why not jsut go ahead an put a half pot bet out (at least), with the intention of calling a shove? There is no guarentee he will pay that amount LATER if e is still drawing (or on TT-77), so why not get that value in now?

If you are bluffing here, then this is a very weak bluff; put him in and force him to make the decision right now.

So...

As it played out, he felt your turn bet was "weak" (most likely), and that his gut shot/top pair hand had a good chance of holding versus what now "appears" to be over cards. He shoves, and you call exactly as you should. He spikes the river though, and you go down in flames...

The TURN is where things really messed things up for you, an your bet there was pretty "critical" for you to win this hand. Based on your read info, I am pretty sure that had you NOT given indication that your flop bet may just be a "standard" C-Bet on over cards only, your opponent does not shove his top pair/gut shot here. He probably does not even stick around to spike the river...

I know this seems to be a bit of a "ramble", but to me the most CRITICAL thing you may have missed in this hand is planning around committment versus that short stack. If you sharpen your skills in that area, then I think you will start to avoid some of these sorts of "beats".

Of course even had you put him in on the turn he MAY have called, and would have still won. The difference of that situation would have been that you would have known this was simply a matter of him spiking, and you could be completely fine with all your decisions throughout the hand. As it played out, I'm not certain you can really say that...
 
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Thu Apr 07, 2011, 03:59 AM
(#6)
badbuddie99's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 25
BronzeStar
Thank you for the advice and I will take it all on board and hopefuly learn from it.

The end result I'm not to disappointed with as I never get worked up over getting out drawn it's all part of the game I've been on the other side of that coin enough times.

The main thing here is I need to work on my bet sizeing and now understand a bit more about watching for pot committment which is something I have known about but never really put enough thought into.

Thank you
 

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