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Hand early in 180 men 4.40

 
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Hand early in 180 men 4.40 - Fri Apr 08, 2011, 03:48 PM
(#1)
TooCruel's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=3C3559C10D

First hand of Villain. Probably shows, I lay down for him holding AK. I can actually ask a few questions regarding the hand but I just like to hear from community how this should/could be played
 
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nothing to see here - move along - Fri Apr 08, 2011, 04:38 PM
(#2)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
no hand to review - however - it sounds like you had a no pair hand - probably a lay down - don.t know what chip sizes were etc - but know reason to go broke with nothing or on a draw.
 
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here is the hand. - Fri Apr 08, 2011, 05:01 PM
(#3)
TooCruel's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
PokerStars Game #60521842414: Tournament #383551023, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/04/08 19:24:42 CET [2011/04/08 13:24:42 ET]
Table '383551023 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kyraris58 (1720 in chips)
Seat 2: pipisneve (9300 in chips)
Seat 3: valdeci01 (1450 in chips)
Seat 4: skorpionick (1268 in chips)
Seat 5: mutt6363 (970 in chips)
Seat 6: TooCruel (2952 in chips)
Seat 7: HiramLodge (1360 in chips)
Seat 8: ArtemDalakan (1560 in chips)
Seat 9: piterskiy10 (1710 in chips)
valdeci01: posts small blind 10
skorpionick: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TooCruel [As Qd]
mutt6363: folds
TooCruel: raises 40 to 60
HiramLodge: raises 80 to 140
ArtemDalakan: folds
piterskiy10: folds
kyraris58: folds
pipisneve: folds
valdeci01: folds
skorpionick: folds
TooCruel: folds
Uncalled bet (80) returned to HiramLodge
HiramLodge collected 150 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 150 | Rake 0
Seat 1: kyraris58 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pipisneve (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: valdeci01 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: skorpionick (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: mutt6363 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TooCruel folded before Flop
Seat 7: HiramLodge collected (150)
Seat 8: ArtemDalakan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: piterskiy10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Was not that simple. I actually have a hand. Questions is more if I am too tight in that spot...?
 
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Fri Apr 08, 2011, 05:18 PM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Your links don't seem to be working.

You got put into an unsavory spot here. The main reason this happened is because you decided to play too loose out of position preflop. Your range should be much tighter in early/middle position during the early stage of tournament. That said, once getting into this spot, being re-raised after raising, I think you need to call here. AQ is a fairly strong hand and you are getting 2.8-1 to call. The raise is so small relative to both your stacks it is worth the risk to potentially win a big pot. Look to hit the flop hard or fold. Had he re-raised you more it is an easy fold. 60 chips is only 2% of your stack.

AQo out of position facing a re-raise is never a good thing. Definitely worth avoiding.
 
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Fri Apr 08, 2011, 07:42 PM
(#5)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Early position with AQoff, depending on table dynamics in general, and ignoring for the moment no info on the villain, I am probably limping with AQoff in this spot. Now if he makes a standard raise I can see the flop fairly cheap by calling, and or can let go with minimal invested. While you have indicated that it is still early, you have nearly double up since start and have villain well covered, and still need to accumulate chips.
As for too tight, I think not, I probably call the extra 60 to see the flop.....
So I guess I'm taking a firm stand right up the middle and sitting on the fence.
 
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Fri Apr 08, 2011, 09:30 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCruel View Post
PokerStars Game #60521842414: Tournament #383551023, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/04/08 19:24:42 CET [2011/04/08 13:24:42 ET]
Table '383551023 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kyraris58 (1720 in chips)
Seat 2: pipisneve (9300 in chips)
Seat 3: valdeci01 (1450 in chips)
Seat 4: skorpionick (1268 in chips)
Seat 5: mutt6363 (970 in chips)
Seat 6: TooCruel (2952 in chips)
Seat 7: HiramLodge (1360 in chips)
Seat 8: ArtemDalakan (1560 in chips)
Seat 9: piterskiy10 (1710 in chips)
valdeci01: posts small blind 10
skorpionick: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TooCruel [As Qd]
mutt6363: folds
TooCruel: raises 40 to 60
HiramLodge: raises 80 to 140
ArtemDalakan: folds
piterskiy10: folds
kyraris58: folds
pipisneve: folds
valdeci01: folds
skorpionick: folds
TooCruel: folds
Uncalled bet (80) returned to HiramLodge
HiramLodge collected 150 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 150 | Rake 0
Seat 1: kyraris58 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pipisneve (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: valdeci01 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: skorpionick (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: mutt6363 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TooCruel folded before Flop
Seat 7: HiramLodge collected (150)
Seat 8: ArtemDalakan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: piterskiy10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Was not that simple. I actually have a hand. Questions is more if I am too tight in that spot...?
Nah...not too tight at all.

A 180 man $4.40 SNG is going to have some pretty decent players, and some pretty "wild" maniacs.

I am not a fan of open limping this, simply because you may well bring this one to the flop as a multi-way pot in which your hand will not really play all that well. Perhaps if you are suited you MIGHT want to consider an open limp, simply because if it does go to the flop multi-way you can fall back on draw value, but off suit: no.

As for open limping with the intent of calling a raise, I do not like that thought all that much either. AQo is not a big enough hand to want to "trap", especially at a very early stage with no real info on your opponents yet. If you ARE facing a better hand when raised, why do you want to call along as 2nd best? And if YOU have the better hand, your decisions will be much harder out of position.

No matter what, suited or not, you really kinda want decent INFORMATION on your table before trying a pretty "fancy" play like limping AQ out of position. You really would rather have that info so you can effectively RANGE your opponents to possibly RE-RAISE a raiser if you open limp; that takes the info tho...

Open raising with your stack on AQo in EP is not bad, as it will often be strong enough to get you to the flop for just that amount, in a pot that has a manageable number of players for you. AQo is not a "world beater", but it is certainly a decent hand on which to raise since there are plenty of players who will have it within their calling range to come along with less.

You then get 3-Bet by another EP player, and this 3-Bet puts the villian about 10% into the pot. Sure, at this point he has a little bit of "room to fold", but without knowledge of his playing patterns you are really clue-less as to whether he WILL fold, how he will bet behind you, or the strngth he requies to 3-Bet you here. With only 60 of your 2952 start stack invested, and lacking the requisite info, there is absolutely nothing wrong with folding.

Continuing here is very difficult without info, so you did very well not to get "married" to a hand which could have caused you trouble. You got out cheap in what could be a risky spot...

...sometimes that is as good as a "win" (almost!).

Last edited by JDean; Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 09:35 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 04:27 AM
(#7)
TooCruel's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
I agree with most said. I will open AQo as it would be to tight imo to just fold. I would not limp it though.Might try it with a suited hand early on though. See how that works out Indeed just a fold. Iy is just that little voice sometimes that ones you to make the call.These fields are full of fish and sometimes you won't give credit when really you should. Though this is a fairly easy spot giving the invested chips and early in the tournament, it is a nice spot to click 'fold' and do nothing fancy.
 
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open limp vrs raising - Sat Apr 09, 2011, 06:47 PM
(#8)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Seems to be some resistance to my suggested limp utg in this spot.

Utg AQ is relatively weak, given the stack sizes / blind levels - I do not value it any higher than 22-JJ which I will also limp with with set mining being the goal, that said I want to see a cheap flop.
By limping in this spot, and the villain raises - for it to be a standard raise - it will likely be 80chips, another 60 into a pot that would then be 130 so better than 2:1 on the call.
If I raise and get three bet as in this example, my 2:1 to call is still there - however I am now in for 140 rather than 60 chips - thus loosing my cheap flop and turning it into a leak.
Still playing this hand as a small pot hand out of position against a possible pocket pair.
The AQ off is about 56:44 vrs a top 15% hand which I consider to be a fairly tight range.
As for the comments about playing it different if the AQ were suited..... makes a 2% difference to the odds 58:42 - I really do not see how it makes any difference to how the had should be played.
I am much more inclined to limp fold vrs raise fold when considering table image, I am projecting, setting up the 4 bet with a truly premium hand.
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 07:19 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I think folding is correct. I don't want to play a bloated pot out of position, and AQ plays pretty terribly against a solid EP 3b range.

Limp/calling < raise/folding
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 08:27 PM
(#10)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I think folding is correct. I don't want to play a bloated pot out of position, and AQ plays pretty terribly against a solid EP 3b range.

Limp/calling < raise/folding
are you saying you would rather raise/fold vrs limp/calling?

Basically I am following the Shades starting hands/action by position chart. Calling the raise is by no means automatic and is highly situational - I am saying it is a cheaper to see the flop with a limp call - versus the raise fold and see no flop.

These actions are also based on the hand posted - with only the SB and BB no antes - meaning I would be much less likely to limp with a larger pot to start with.

All of the above also depends on what the action at the table has been like up to this point.
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 08:36 PM
(#11)
TooCruel's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
You are really are up for the limp call I see how this is cheaper when raised to still call but oop it plays horrible I would say. Or maybe I dont have the skills to play it like that. Maybe you go to the flop with 4 or 5 players or you get raised and call which brings you OOP in -let's say- heads up pot. The only thing that might be is that your hand is disguised so if an Ace hits you could be check calling a guy who had QQ or KK or so..and then there is the danger of running in to AK which leaves you shattered..

Oh and by the way, the Langolier posted on my thread:P +1 hehe
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 09:04 PM
(#12)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Sure he can have AK or even a big pocket pair - villian could also be playing a smaller pocket pair - and release with over cards on the flop.
Villain is new to table - does he c-bet the flop? does it go check check? I kinda want to see what the new guy at the table does next.
I agree it is not ideal to play oop with this hand - but as I said - I am valueing this hand about the same as or a little lower than a pocket pair 22-JJ where I am set mining - and that being the case - a multi way limped pot for 20 chips is ideal, and comes back to what has the action been like up to that point on the table.
Please be clear - I am not saying that you played it wrong - I think you made a solid lay down - and my original response, that a call might be made, was made based on relative chip stacks.
The big thing in favour of a lay down here is, as JD pointed out, came from another early position player, what if the raise came from the cut off or the button? are you insta-folding then?
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2011, 09:11 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
are you saying you would rather raise/fold vrs limp/calling?

Basically I am following the Shades starting hands/action by position chart. Calling the raise is by no means automatic and is highly situational - I am saying it is a cheaper to see the flop with a limp call - versus the raise fold and see no flop.

These actions are also based on the hand posted - with only the SB and BB no antes - meaning I would be much less likely to limp with a larger pot to start with.

All of the above also depends on what the action at the table has been like up to this point.
That's what I'm saying. Limp/calling is not good because it will be very difficult to play AQ in a raised pot out of position when we don't have the initiative. Limp/folding is just as bad because it paints a target on our backs as a fish and we'll get raised behind us like crazy.

I would rather open for a raise first in, often we'll gain control of the hand and that leads to good things. When an EP player 3b us I think we should fold. AQ does not play well vs his range, and we're in a bloated pot out of position with it if we call.
 

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