Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

How much equity do you need to call two All ins at the early stages of a tourny?

 
Old
Default
How much equity do you need to call two All ins at the early stages of a tourny? - Sun Apr 10, 2011, 04:06 PM
(#1)
JollyRangerR's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
BronzeStar
See below for information.

JollyRangerR is the HERO.


PokerStars Game #60630538122: Tournament #415010003, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2011/04/10 11:53:13 AKT [2011/04/10 15:53:13 ET]
Table '415010003 3311' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: GiGaDo (3000 in chips)
Seat 2: frl24 (690 in chips)
Seat 3: JerryCZech (8452 in chips)
Seat 4: elseñorpica (2850 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: MY3DAUGHTERS (2850 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: SokedEnt777 (3145 in chips)
Seat 7: JollyRangerR (5340 in chips)
Seat 8: Dimanmart (3348 in chips)
Seat 9: Iskander052 (2845 in chips)
SokedEnt777: posts small blind 25
JollyRangerR: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JollyRangerR [Kh Kd]
Dimanmart: calls 50
Iskander052: folds
GiGaDo: calls 50
frl24: raises 640 to 690 and is all-in
JerryCZech: folds
elseñorpica: folds
MY3DAUGHTERS: folds
SokedEnt777: raises 2455 to 3145 and is all-in
JollyRangerR: calls 3095
Dimanmart: folds
GiGaDo: folds
*** FLOP *** [Tc 4h 3s]
*** TURN *** [Tc 4h 3s] [As]
*** RIVER *** [Tc 4h 3s As] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SokedEnt777: shows [Js Ah] (a pair of Aces)
JollyRangerR: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
SokedEnt777 collected 4910 from side pot
frl24: shows [Kc 7c] (high card Ace)
SokedEnt777 collected 2170 from main pot
frl24 finished the tournament in 29863rd place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7080 Main pot 2170. Side pot 4910. | Rake 0
Board [Tc 4h 3s As 2d]
Seat 1: GiGaDo folded before Flop
Seat 2: frl24 showed [Kc 7c] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 3: JerryCZech folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: elseñorpica folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: MY3DAUGHTERS (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: SokedEnt777 (small blind) showed [Js Ah] and won (7080) with a pair of Aces
Seat 7: JollyRangerR (big blind) showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: Dimanmart folded before Flop
Seat 9: Iskander052 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Old
Default
Sun Apr 10, 2011, 04:13 PM
(#2)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
I could muck here as I only have 50 chips in. However, the other thought is never fold KK and always live with what happens. Best case here you are against two opponents that hold the same hand........AK. However, you are still in trouble as your two outs are gone. Simply muck and move on to the next hand.

JT
 
Old
Default
Sun Apr 10, 2011, 06:34 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Your TEQ (Tournament Equity) for making this call, even if you ARE a "favorite", can be adversely effected by the following factors:

A) The chips "won" are a tiny fraction of the average chip stack ITM.

This would mean it is a large field event, and thus the average stack ITM would be VERY large.

Going here means you are potentially trading your current Table "Q" (the ratio of your stack to avg table stack = "Q") for the chance to pick up an amount of chips which will be relatively "insignifcant" once you reach ITM. This fact would make you less inclined to risk your accumulated chips.

Realistically, with it being a short stack shover, and what APPEARS to be an iso-raiser, I would still think you re-shoving is correct here with KK, even in a very large field event. Afterall, the only guy who can bust you has already folded, so worst case is you LOSE, and move on with about 44 BB.

B) A bare ITM finish represents a SIGNIFICANT amount of money to you.

Any min cash in an $11 MTT is hardly ever a "large" amount of cash in REAL TERMS to someone who can deposit money for on line poker. Were this a $1,000 buy in MTT that you sattied into, and the min cash is $1500-$2,000, the story may be totally different. Any time a min cash represents a signifcant increase in your overall BR, you will probably have a lower level of risk acceptance in your game decisions overall.

Realistically, $11 is not a lot of money, and a min cash in the $15 to $20 range probably isn't either. I doubt seriously I'd NOT call in with this situation due to cash concerns.

C) You have a LARGE skill advantage over your opponents.

The larger your skill advantage over table oppoonents, the LESS you should desire all in pre-flop situations. Afterall, all-in pre-flop situations result in your skill advantage, which USUALLY comes via post-flop play, to be totally negated...when a lesser player is all-in their decisions (and their "mistakes") are all over, right?

Again, in this situation your likely advantage over these 2 all-ins is so large, and the chance you are facing Aces is so small, that even were you the BEST player in the world playing against ALL "beginners", I do not think you can pass this up...

So...

I cannot give you any hard and fast "rules" for the level of equity you need to call into a situation like this. I say this simply because not only is that decision effected by the above considerations, but also by your personal level of risk assessment.

Your situation here is not "really" 2 all-in's, since the first all-in is pretty insignificant to the amount you might win here, AND since doubling that short stack does not hugely effect your table "Q" versus him. So you are essentially playing almost totally against the range of the re-shover.

The best I can do is relate to you MY personal thinking regarding all-in's this early:

1) If I am considering calling an all-in for ALL my chips, this early I really want about a 70% equity "edge". This means I'm only calling if I feel there is a good chance I hold a dominating pocket pair.

2) If I am considering calling an all-in for 2/3rds plus of my stack, I want to be pretty sure I am at least 65% equity versus a single opponent. I also want to know there is no one to act BEHIND me who can put me the rest of the way in to drop below that 70% threshold. This lesser amount of of chip committment may move my range to include AK versus looser opponents. (#note: I am saying this if the 1/3rd left leaves me with 25+ BB)

I am not entirely sure this answers your question exactly as you like, but there really is not hard and fast rule that says "X amount of equity is good to go, and Y amount means you gotta fold"...

So I guess the answer is: "It depends"

Last edited by JDean; Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 06:36 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Apr 10, 2011, 06:45 PM
(#4)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Your TEQ (Tournament Equity) for making this call, even if you ARE a "favorite", can be adversely effected by the following factors:

A) The chips "won" are a tiny fraction of the average chip stack ITM.

This would mean it is a large field event, and thus the average stack ITM would be VERY large.

Going here means you are potentially trading your current Table "Q" (the ratio of your stack to avg table stack = "Q") for the chance to pick up an amount of chips which will be relatively "insignifcant" once you reach ITM. This fact would make you less inclined to risk your accumulated chips.

Realistically, with it being a short stack shover, and what APPEARS to be an iso-raiser, I would still think you re-shoving is correct here with KK, even in a very large field event. Afterall, the only guy who can bust you has already folded, so worst case is you LOSE, and move on with about 44 BB.

B) A bare ITM finish represents a SIGNIFICANT amount of money to you.

Any min cash in an $11 MTT is hardly ever a "large" amount of cash in REAL TERMS to someone who can deposit money for on line poker. Were this a $1,000 buy in MTT that you sattied into, and the min cash is $1500-$2,000, the story may be totally different. Any time a min cash represents a signifcant increase in your overall BR, you will probably have a lower level of risk acceptance in your game decisions overall.

Realistically, $11 is not a lot of money, and a min cash in the $15 to $20 range probably isn't either. I doubt seriously I'd NOT call in with this situation due to cash concerns.

C) You have a LARGE skill advantage over your opponents.

The larger your skill advantage over table oppoonents, the LESS you should desire all in pre-flop situations. Afterall, all-in pre-flop situations result in your skill advantage, which USUALLY comes via post-flop play, to be totally negated...when a lesser player is all-in their decisions (and their "mistakes") are all over, right?

Again, in this situation your likely advantage over these 2 all-ins is so large, and the chance you are facing Aces is so small, that even were you the BEST player in the world playing against ALL "beginners", I do not think you can pass this up...

So...

I cannot give you any hard and fast "rules" for the level of equity you need to call into a situation like this. I say this simply because not only is that decision effected by the above considerations, but also by your personal level of risk assessment.

Your situation here is not "really" 2 all-in's, since the first all-in is pretty insignificant to the amount you might win here, AND since doubling that short stack does not hugely effect your table "Q" versus him. So you are essentially playing almost totally against the range of the re-shover.

The best I can do is relate to you MY personal thinking regarding all-in's this early:

1) If I am considering calling an all-in for ALL my chips, this early I really want about a 70% equity "edge". This means I'm only calling if I feel there is a good chance I hold a dominating pocket pair.

2) If I am considering calling an all-in for 2/3rds plus of my stack, I want to be pretty sure I am at least 65% equity versus a single opponent. I also want to know there is no one to act BEHIND me who can put me the rest of the way in to drop below that 70% threshold. This lesser amount of of chip committment may move my range to include AK versus looser opponents. (#note: I am saying this if the 1/3rd left leaves me with 25+ BB)

I am not entirely sure this answers your question exactly as you like, but there really is not hard and fast rule that says "X amount of equity is good to go, and Y amount means you gotta fold"...

So I guess the answer is: "It depends"

You will need your time bank while running through all of this stuff. Unless of course, you have already made up your mind what you will be doing when this situation comes to light.

Great answer JD, but you already knew that!

JT
 
Old
Default
Great! Thank you - Sun Apr 10, 2011, 10:01 PM
(#5)
JollyRangerR's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
BronzeStar
I appreciate the work you did for me there. You gave me a lot to mull over that exceeded my initial question.

The question of the equity thing was more of a "Would you ever really fold KK pre-flop" and both of you answered me with great answers.

Appreciate the help!
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com