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Too weak with JJ?

 
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Too weak with JJ? - Sun Apr 10, 2011, 09:51 PM
(#1)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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With a decent stack and BB at $150... is it too weak of a play to just limp UTG with JJ. the previous 2 hands i had AA and then KK dealt and raised to $600 PF in each case. Winning both hands at showdown.

Should i have done the same thing here? (to $600) i know jacks early can be tough..well lets face it...they are tough anywhere for me.

i was calling with the intent to flop trips of course and hopefully get a good score. i mean there was only $225 in pot when i put my bet in and $825 before SB raise.

After the SB raise to $1800 i would only get @1.5 to 1 on call with just under 1/4 of my stack.
I gave him credit because of his position and he had shown decent hands before.

Should i have raised from UTG to try and isolate and keep them from limping in the first place and then assess any possible reraise?

I didnt have any solid info on anyone else at the table.

 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 12:42 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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What would you do if you 3-bet and then get raised a ton over the top?
What reads did you have on the table? Would you normally get to see a cheap flop? Does someone normally raise?

If you do 3-bet and then get raised a ton, since you figured him to have a better hand then you, you'll lose 3X as many chips.... if you call, you're probably going to double him.

Since at an early level, I'd probably muck them.... unless...... the table history says I can see a flop cheap.. then I'll take a chance on a big hit. After ITM, I'd 3-bet them if I'm playing them from UTG.... and be ready to call if they push back (which can get you into trouble too).
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 04:04 AM
(#3)
TooCruel's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 33
I would have raised preflop. Now you are in the dark whether he is just punishing all limpers and making a very strong move from the small blind with a hand he would dare to see an all inn with or that he has a real hand. What kind of hands could he do that with? Certainly AK, big pairs but maybe even 88s 99s? After he pushes it becomes very hard to call however.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 09:04 AM
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tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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I actually think it depends on how you like to play.

For tight players, I would think this is a hand you raise with early regardless of blind size - limping or folding is a losing play because you are waiting for hands like this to come along so you must play it aggressively when you do. If you don't play a high pocket pair (albeit JJ), then what will you play? I think the odds are about 6-1 (15% approx?) that nobody has AA, KK, QQ in your situation so don't get sucked into the 'Jacks are bad' myth when deciding how to play pre-flop. They're not. You just have to play them correctly.

Limping on the button or checking the BB is fine if you think that you cant take anyone off their hand with a raise. Think about the early maniac tables you may get where you may get raised with any two broadway cards. You might be behind here if the flop looks bad, so it might be better to limp late on and roll with the punches so to speak.

The more intelligent looser player may limp or muck early. The thinking being that they will play many other hands with more mileage on later streets. JJ that early in that position is second best when a player on the button or in the blinds calls with a higher face card and flops a pair. And unless you have a good read, you wont know and will be losing with the second best hand.

Though, I don't consider the level in the example here to be early. In 2 levels the antes come in, and you need a stack to support the upcoming blinds (you're in very good shape btw). At this level, your raise should start be reduced lower than 3BB anyway, so I would have raised pre-flop 2.5x (due to stack preservation and commitment decision reasons). If anyone comes over the top of you, then your feel of the table comes into play obviously.

Last edited by tomrankin51; Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 09:07 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 11:13 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
He can't 3b/fold, if he 3b's this raise it'll be all in, the raise is to 1800 and the effective stacks aren't that big. 3b all in may be reasonable here if we feel the SB is capable of squeezing a field of limpers light.

I really don't like limping JJ utg, I think we're asking to be raised and if we're not going to know what to do then we shouldn't put ourself in that position in the first place. I would open this for my standard open raise which is roughly 2.5x, and go from there. Starting with roughly 50 bb's I'm not married to the situation, but we are likely to have the best hand so let's proceed as such.

@tomrankin, a loose player should never open fold JJ, they're playing a lot of hands normally and JJ is at the top of that range, they tend to not get credit for this strong a starting hand. A part of the whole loose thing is getting undue action on your stronger hands because no one gives you credit. A loose player can open this, and get stacks in profitably on say a T high flop because the guy with AT won't give them enough credit.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 12:00 PM
(#6)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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I hear ya on the 2.5 raise. i guess i'd almost have to do that to try and get more info and stop other limpers from cheaply getting a ragged 2 pr or shot at a draw on the flop.

I didnt have too much info on the table. the 2 people i put out before this hand were very loose or called weak alot.

Maybe i just wasnt confident enough in the jacks to raise because it can be a tough hand to hold up. But i have to play them legit and see what happens.

Thanks for the info guys.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 01:36 PM
(#7)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
A loose player should never open fold JJ, they're playing a lot of hands normally and JJ is at the top of that range, they tend to not get credit for this strong a starting hand. A part of the whole loose thing is getting undue action on your stronger hands because no one gives you credit. A loose player can open this, and get stacks in profitably on say a T high flop because the guy with AT won't give them enough credit.
Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself properly - very possible! I believe everyone should be open raising this hand and not limping OOP or throwing it away (as I hope was clear in my post). I agree with you that standard opening raise is the best move. It was JWK who mentioned he would fold this at an early level, but I don't know if he means only in a PSO.

I said a loose player may limp or fold JJ (not 'will definitely', or 'limp-fold to action'). This didn't mention any other aspect of their style (and perhaps should have tbh). Maybe "more intelligent" is not right either. I think I meant someone that recognises if they are able to play this hand correctly. I could see an average, loose, PSO-centric player folding this pre-flop because of the need to play it correctly post flop against either the tight and conservative, or the not so great and loose, and being donked off his stack losing much needed points.

I'm also thinking of a player such as John Duthie who seems to raise up junk hands, and then limp in the monsters quite regularly from what I've seen of him. Not that I've seen him fold big cards though....
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 02:01 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Tom, I did mean in a PSO. If was in a cash mtt, I'd have used a std opening raise and then saw the flop and play it from there.
 

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