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Please Look At This

 
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Please Look At This - Wed Mar 30, 2011, 11:30 AM
(#1)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 02:13 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
** Move to stand alone post **
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 03:58 PM
(#3)
VareckRay's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 182
I don't usually give advice on the way to play a hand as I'm really not that good myself but all I can say is don't play q4 (even suited) from utg, probably anywhere actually. There are a number of reasons why your play was wrong. Maybe the fella playing the hand with you knew you were likely very weak despite the raise and took advantage of that. It's not likely to be the first time you have done this, is it?
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
with this level, you shouldn't be ITM yet. Therefore first goal is to preserve enough chips to get ITM. Due to this, the hand should be mucked, as it's not strong enough.
When you play a hand from UTG, you really need to not play any A nor any 2 suited cards. From this position, you only want to play premium hands. However, if you are going to play one, I like that you raised to 3BB.

Anyone player that would call your preflop raise should have a strong hand and with the flop, I would not have bet it, as with the A on it, you're more than likely behind.

You did get extremely unlucky on the turn by hitting the 2nd nut flush... when someone else had the nuts, but the trouble started from playing a marginal hand in the beginning.

In this situation, you need to fold preflop since it's a marginal hand... and preserve your chips to get you ITM, then gamble to get to the final table.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:52 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
When you post a hand give us some info.
It will help us see how you are looking at the hand and it might help us pin point a leak.
Things you can give us:
-What kind of tourney this is? (PSO,freeroll,Micro,rebuy,turbo etc.)
-Stage of the tourney (Mid stage,early stage,itm,near the bubble)
-Reads on table and villian
-Thoughts on why you thought this play would work
-What you think oould be changed to fix the hand

As played this is a snap fold 98% of the time.
Button,Cutoff Hijack and Big blind are all quite short and would call with any ace most of the time.
Small blind can play some post flop and most likely has quite a wide range to get that much of a chip lead on the table.

Have a mental checklist when you want to play a hand.
So taking this hand in to the checklist..

-Do I have position?
This is very important and your hand needs it if you get into post flop play.
Try to play hands that are connected and suited from a later position if at all.

- If a shortsrtack shoves am I going to be happy calling with Queen high?
The odds of one of these shorties calling is high.The thing that might give them 2nd thought is each other and the small blind calling behind.

- If small blind plays back at me or shoves am I continuing with this play?
If you are not planning before you make the bet you are not playing effective poker.
Small blind is calling a lot just looking at his stack.Look at all the stacks at the table before you bet.

- Do you know how much chips you need to min-cash?
Take the amount of players in the field and mulitpy it by the amount of starting chips.
Then divide it by the first payout placing.This is a rough and dirty idea of how much you need.

-Table image?
How often are you playing from early position?
You want your play at the table to be higher in later position than early.
UTG is a very hard spot to open from and If you have done it in the last 3 orbits be ready to be looked up.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 08:37 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
This is not a totally un-common situation for newer players to find themselves in, but it IS one which can easily be AVOIDED if you change your thinking a bit before you start...

Operative Thought for this hand:

ANY TIME YOU ENTER A POT, YOU SHOULD "PLAN AHEAD" FOR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

The more marginal your start hand, the more you must plan ahead to avoid getting "stuck" to a given board. I think the fundemental failing you made in this hand was failure to plan ahead, thus leaving yourself "card dependant". When you hit your flush, you are totally dependant upon that being the BEST HAND for you to win. Oftentimes 2nd nut flush will be good enough to win, but in this spot it wasn't.

You really should start off by asking yourself:

Why are you attempting to blind steal UTG with Q4d in THIS SPOT?

I am asking this simply because your hand does not contain enough "value" to truly be worth a UTG raise unless you intend it as a blind steal. The threat of someone with a better hand will re-raise you, or even call, is too high to make any reasonable case for this being a "value raise".

1) You need to know your table will FOLD a good number of times to attempt this.

If the dynamic "tight"?

You really want to have information which tells you that your table mates will not call you on semi-strong hands like AT/QJ/66 etc before you try this steal here. If you CANNOT get a lot of these "calling hands" to fold, then a blind steal UTG becomes too risky to really make an attempt worthwhile.

Is your personal "table image" one which you can reasonably expect everyone BEHIND you to "assume" you will likely raise UTG with only a premium holding?

You really need have a personal handle on the hands you have played, the ones you have shown down, and (most especially) whether your opponents are "aware" enough to have noticed these things. If your image is too "loose", you simply will not get a whole lot of "reapect" for any UTG raise, and that will spell doom more often for your UTG steal than it will result in "sucess.

Operative Thought: KNOW THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE THEY'LL ALL FOLD!

2) What can you "expect" from your hand if you DO get called?

The "best" thing you can hope for when you attempt a steal, short of it "working", is that someone RE-RAISES you and makes it easy for you to "give up" on your steal attempt.

When you start with a hand like Q4s, you will tend to flop a top pair with your Q often enough to simply get yourself in kicker trouble if playing against a caller.

You will also flop a flush draw just often enough to potentially cost you MORE than you really may want to pay in a NLHE game. Playing draws out of postion means you can easily get yourself into a situation where you must either lead bet to set your own "price" (with the threat always of a RAISE behind you), or you must fall back upon your opponent to take the lead in betting. Neither of these things are really good for you.

Because of these factors, I MUCH prefer attempting these sorts of "steals" with small pocket pairs (ones I would ot normally raise UTG), OR on a completely random hand like 72o. These are hands which I will either hit extremely "hard", and can easily bet for value, or will miss and be able to fold easily, BEFORE I put in a lot more chips.

Operative Thought: KNOW THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE YOU CAN FOLD POST-FLOP FOR A MINIMAL COST.

3) You need to know your own level of "risk exposure" because of stack sizes.

Look at this hand...

The BB holds only about 1200 behind his 250 BB. With less than 5 BB behind, might he not make a "stand" on a much wider range than normal?

Since you've already raised to 750, even if everyone FOLDS, and the BB does shove to stand, you are looking at a 2615 pot, into which you must CALL "only" 790. You'd have 3.3 to 1 odds to call, and pretty much have "stuck" yourself to this pot.

Whenever I consider making a raise versus the blind of an extremely short stack, I always ask myself: "Am I happy to play my hand for all his chips pre-flop?" Holding Q4s I am not really happy about playing for 10% to 15% of my stack if the Big Blind does shove...are you?

There is also the ONLY player at the table who can bust you in the SB. While you will have position if he does call into the hand, do you REALLY want to play a pretty "garbage" hand like Q4s against someone who can put you all-in at any time?

You can "see" a lot of trouble spots for trying your blind steal here, with this particular hand, BEFORE you ever enter the pot at all. Can you now see how you may have leveraged this information to AVOID having entered this pot at all?

Operative Thought: KNOW WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN THAT IS "BAD" BEFORE YOU ENTER THE POT AT ALL.

Now we get to the hand as played:

You do raise, and you get 2 callers, one of them the only guy who can bust you.

You "hit" the flop aobut as well as you can expect: an A comes that you can "represent", but you actually have flopped the 2nd nut flush raw with your pretty "trashy" hand.

You lead out behind the SB's check (which is prefectly acceptable) on a semi-bluff. If you are going to play a hand which derives much of its value from flopped draws, AND when you are playing against opponents who are not past a "committment point" with their stacks, this is usually the BEST thing to do. Of course this is "risky", since your lead out is into the button caller who has only 1920 behind, and who may commit; if the button does commit, you again are "stuck" calling, and probably have only your flush outs to win. "Luckily", the button does not shove, and only the SB calls...

At this point, you are at a pretty critical "cusp": you have about 20% to 25% of your start stack in, and you can still FOLD if the SB leads hard on a non-diamond turn. Of course the diamond does come, and you make "bingo!"

Since your actions BEFORE this made flush came forced you into a situation where you were "card dependant", when you make the flush, folding would be a BIG "mistake". Think about it: You got EXACTLY what you "wanted" all the way through this hand; how can you fold now, right?

Unfortunately, the SB made a BETTER FLUSH, and you busted...

Absent the early "mistakes" regarding entering the pot for a steal against a stack that is highly "dangerous" to steal against, and choosing a hand that may flop you a deent draw, you never find yourself in this spot. So this loss may "feel" like a simple cooler hand, when in reality you had no business being in there at all.

This is clearly a situation where planning ahead for what may happen as a result of your early decisions can lead you to avoid "disaster" later on.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 02:02 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 08:53 PM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Just brilliant JD
 

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