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5 Hands...

 
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5 Hands... - Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:17 PM
(#1)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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I've gone through a recent hand history and thought I would submit various highlights to be scrutinised. I apologise for it being a bit too much, but I'd rather get some answers than sit here wondering. Ok...

Hand 1
I was new at the table so didn't have many reads, but the initial raiser looked loose and was chatty. I deduced that the shover was taking advantage, expecting everyone to fold and the raiser to call. I knew I was ahead of AK every time, and it was 9-1 that someone held AA or KK so I would shove this again and again - but would you?



Hand 2
Now...I realise my hand is weak. Very rarely do I do this to mix my game up. So before the advice goes "you should never have...", understand that it's in context with the whole of my game - something that the hand replayer cant ever show. Viper hadnt played a hand since Level 4, sat out a lot, and let his stack drop from 1300. He had gone all in at the last minute with K4o with 300 chips and when he shoved I didn't think there was much there - and with 40% then I felt I should call the extra.



Hand 3
Yet another player playing face high hands regardless. I saw this as a blind steal, and I was willing to stack off given the right board. When the flop came I was looking to check-raise all in, but he checked behind. It's really the turn bet I'm struggling with. I decided to rep a flush, but maybe I should have done things differently. Though the villain did think about this for a really long time, asking "am I fooling?" and "do I have something".



Hand 4
Firstly the BB was a sit out but it doesnt show that. Secondly, the Button was another Face Fancier, and was aggressive. He didnt have many chips, only called, and I thought I'd have a good chance with a good board. Though the OOP was bad, and would have folded to a raise. His re-raise was unbelievable - looked like he was repping a flush and the straight but I never saw suited cards or connectors only face-rag high so I called. WIth the two pair I decided to put him all in.



Thank you to whoever decides to look through these. I realise I go on too much, so Im sorry!
Tom
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:22 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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first hand.... like the shove. Like it even better when they both have an A... one less card they have to draw out on you with.

Honestly, I just shoved QQ in a s&g a few min ago... but I ran into KK on it.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:28 PM
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2nd hand... I wouldn't have raised in the beginning..... BUT....

when Viper shoved on you, you were then putting an extra 420 chips into a pot of 2055 (20%). 7 8 off against only one player with 2 random cards is 45% equity. If you make the raise, then it's a mandatory call of his push.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:32 PM
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3rd hand. No problems. Since he checked the flop, more than likely he had a similar hand to you and missed it. By betting the turn, you put the pressure on him.... instead of checking and him doing the same to you.

If he called the turn, you know you're in trouble and they probably have a mid pair or a flush draw, so if you miss the river.... you need to fold.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:33 PM
(#5)
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Posts: 1,962
Hi Tom,

Are all these hands in PSO? If so you are certainly improving. A bigger stack gives you options off course and it is good to see you post a positive thread with your thoughts and insight for your actions.

Well done,

TC
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:37 PM
(#6)
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4th hand...

if you're going to push him all in, do it after the flop and not the turn. You don't want to give him a chance to hit the 4th club without it costing him to do so. It only was an extra 989 chips into a pot of almost 6k at the flop and you had top pair and an open-ended straight draw.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:39 PM
(#7)
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I only see 4 hands, not 5. If there is another one, please repost it, as it didn't go thru.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 05:46 PM
(#8)
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Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Great advice JWK24, with your help Tom is becoming a player to reckon with....
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 06:18 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Hand 1:
A tip that might help you find if villian is loose is hitting the hand replayer and clicking through the hands real quick to see how often he is playing and shoving.
If this is a PSO do a quick check in the standings to see where they sit.If you have time look at how they have played lately,are they going out early but making deep runs every 4th tourney?
Thats a sign of a gambler that wants a big stack to bully or a quick out.
Sometimes if its a tough call,I even check opr and PTR ratings.
But as played I dont mind it but not happy about playing for stacks 3 way with QQ.
That said Im never happy playing for stacks without reads when Im new to a table..lol

Hand 2:
I still am not liking the play even with your reasoning.
You mention he was sitting out and shoved K4 recently,that tells me he is the classic sit out
and when he comes back he plays like a donk.You get a few like this and I presume they are at work messing around and the boss just showed up and he has to sit out for a minute.Boss is gone and he is back to pissing people off with atc hands.
Just because the villian has a wide range,doesnt mean you open your range so wide.
This is how they get that stack up so quick.Its also why establishing a image pays off so often.
Im folding this unless you think you have some kind of fold equity,which it doesnt sound like you do.

Hand 3:
It works.
Once you hit lower limit tourneys you might have to get alittle more creative.

Hand 4:
Funny how Big blind folds preflop.

Things to look at for next time.
Your flop bet is weak are you slowplaying or value betting in this spot?
If I was villian I would only be playing this two ways folding or shoving on the flop.
His minraise is doing nothing,especially with his hand,he wants to back you off well he has some fold equity.
When you bet flop I presume you are ready to go all the way with the villian,so I would put him allin on the flop after he minraises.
You watch any decent player at a higher limit and you will rarely see a weak bet/min-raise and then a call.It will be weak/minbet/shove most of the time or it reads weak all around.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 06:20 PM
(#10)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Are all these hands in PSO? If so you are certainly improving. A bigger stack gives you options off course and it is good to see you post a positive thread with your thoughts and insight for your actions.
Yes cat they're all in PSO - I dont play cash atm for the only reason that I want to be sure of my ability before committing money. I really dont think Im there yet, thank you for the nice, positive comments :-) Im working very hard to become good at this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
4th hand...

if you're going to push him all in, do it after the flop and not the turn. You don't want to give him a chance to hit the 4th club without it costing him to do so. It only was an extra 989 chips into a pot of almost 6k at the flop and you had top pair and an open-ended straight draw.
Really? Even with nothing on the board? I wasn't drawing to anything either really

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I only see 4 hands, not 5. If there is another one, please repost it, as it didn't go thru.
There were five, but the 5th I decided I didnt need help on but then couldnt change the title :-)

Thank you very much for the feedback. Im pleased I generally did the right things at the right times.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 06:24 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
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Really? Even with nothing on the board? I wasn't drawing to anything either really


you had top pair and an open-ended straight draw.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 06:34 PM
(#12)
tomrankin51's Avatar
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Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Hand 1:
A tip that might help you find if villian is loose is hitting the hand replayer and clicking through the hands real quick to see how often he is playing and shoving.
Sorry Im not sure what you mean Cookies. Do you mean take my hand history from that session and do a count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Hand 2:
Just because the villian has a wide range,doesnt mean you open your range so wide.
This is how they get that stack up so quick.Its also why establishing a image pays off so often.
I didnt raise because of the villains range. I raised to mix my game up and not become predictable. Tbh in future Im thinking twice. When I looked back I didnt like myself doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Hand 3:
It works.
Once you hit lower limit tourneys you might have to get alittle more creative.
This is what I meant - I dont know what else I can do here and would like to know what someone good does lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Hand 4:
Funny how Big blind folds preflop.

Things to look at for next time.
Your flop bet is weak are you slowplaying or value betting in this spot?
If I was villian I would only be playing this two ways folding or shoving on the flop.
His minraise is doing nothing,especially with his hand,he wants to back you off well he has some fold equity.
When you bet flop I presume you are ready to go all the way with the villian,so I would put him allin on the flop after he minraises.
You watch any decent player at a higher limit and you will rarely see a weak bet/min-raise and then a call.It will be weak/minbet/shove most of the time or it reads weak all around.
The BB sat out, but the replayer doesnt show that :-S

Im value betting. This is a more money in the pot spot then? I actually expected a shove on the flop, and was surprised I didnt get one. So is a call to a good min raise ok if I feel it necessary, or will it be always shove / fold in this position?

JWK - Im sorry Im tired! I was looking at a different hand lol!
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 06:52 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Hand 1 response:
When you first sit at a new table,hit the red button on the right corner and the hand replayer will pop up.You can see usually the last 9 hands at the table before you joined it.
Its a helpfull tip especially in turbos.

Hand2:
Mixing it up verses some one that isnt payihg attention is pointless.

Hand3:
Thats something you will have to figure out,since a lot of things go into making a play.
Experience kind of guides you down the path.A lot of things we pick up on at a table with out realizing it factors in to our descisons.I could tell you how to mix it up but it might not work because of table image or the villian.But if you and villian had the same stack,it would be a snap shove for me once you have made that bet.Its hard to call with Ace high if your not a gambler.

Hand 4 response:
I dontt like that you are value betting with this board.
So many over cards could come and give you a real problem.
Say a Queen comes and villian was to shove.How much harder is it to call if you had equal stacks?You want to get it in when you are ahead,otherwise you need to think about folding.
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 07:10 PM
(#14)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
More fantastic advice Tom; you are fortunate to have the input of these two guys; I am sure we will see great things from you soon.

TC
 
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Mon Apr 11, 2011, 09:55 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Hand #1:
You are on the "made" hand in a situation which figures to be one where opponents can easily be "sharing" outs.
The only "threats" to you here are AA/KK and AK (for a race), but if one of these guys holds AK, again, he may be "sharing" outs, so it isn;t a BAD "race" for you.
You only have 13 BB behind anyway, so you probably "need" a chip up. this makes even a "race" much more acceptable to you.
With the intial raiser having ANY indications of "looseness", and with the caller having a widened range he may well "stand" on semi-lightly, I too "go for it" in this spot far more often than not.

Hand #2:
Nothing really wrong here with a steal from late position that I can see.
Sure, there are short stacks in the blinds who can "stand", but with indications of "tightness" it is pretty unlikely you are seeing that shove by a dominating un-paired hand to you. This means you are probably no worse than 35%, and playing for about 25% of your stack.
The KEY to me is that you must recognize these players as those who are "ladder climbing", thus willing to fold to a raise.
Me, I PREFER to do this with a suited 87 to give me that little bit of "extra" value, since I am sticking myself to this pot by my raise, but that is a highly personal preference.

Hand #3:
I MUCH perfer a 3Bet to "defend" your BB here.
AQo is a decently solid hand, especially with your read indicating he will try to steal light from the button.
3Betting this gives you the betting "lead", and let's you C-Bet strongly to take him off most of his "misses".
Since you state you are willing to stack off to this opponent, why not test him BEFORE the flop comes, and before you are faced with a flop "miss" 2/3rds the time for your hand?
Had you held a gr 1 pocket pair (JJ-AA), I can see more "reason" to play this as a "stop and go" blind defense, but the reality of your holding says you may have been better off testing him right from jump street.

Hand #4:
Pre-flop, versus a loose player, your suited 76 may not be strong enough to call in here.
His smaller stack really does not give you enough which you can WIN to make it "worth" playing a draw flop hard for the semi-bluff.
If you do want to play here, again you should consider RAISING pre-flop, and testing him.
His limp is not a sign of huge "strength", so testing him with a small-ish raise (say to 3BB total), may well win the pot right there for you, without sticking you extremely hard to a bleh flop.

Last edited by JDean; Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 09:58 PM..
 
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Tue Apr 12, 2011, 03:00 AM
(#16)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
More fantastic advice Tom; you are fortunate to have the input of these two guys
It ended up being three of the best round here, so even better :-)

Quote:
Hand 4 response:
I dontt like that you are value betting with this board.
So many over cards could come and give you a real problem.
Say a Queen comes and villian was to shove.How much harder is it to call if you had equal stacks?You want to get it in when you are ahead,otherwise you need to think about folding.
Quote:
Hand #4:
Pre-flop, versus a loose player, your suited 76 may not be strong enough to call in here.
His smaller stack really does not give you enough which you can WIN to make it "worth" playing a draw flop hard for the semi-bluff.
If you do want to play here, again you should consider RAISING pre-flop, and testing him.
His limp is not a sign of huge "strength", so testing him with a small-ish raise (say to 3BB total), may well win the pot right there for you, without sticking you extremely hard to a bleh flop.
Is raising pre with 76s not a spewy play here? It has mileage, but with the effective stacks being 1/3 of mine why not just call, leave myself uncommitted to the flop with a speculative hand and then re-evaluate?

Maybe I wasn't value betting? I was basically betting with what I thought was the best hand with equally the best draw. Is any play other than a shove here correct?
 
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Tue Apr 12, 2011, 09:18 PM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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There is no "rule" that says you MUST take every "good price" you are getting.

This is a tournament, thus the simple fact you will win enough, often enough, to make a play "+ev", does NOT make it positive TOURNEY ev. Remember: Just because you will WIN 1/3rd the time, and will win 2.5 times tha amount you risk when you win, does NOT negate the fact you will lose almost 1/3rd your stack roughly 66% of the time! Unlike a cash game, an MTT is also concerned with chip "preservation" as well as chip accumulation, so jsut because you are getting a "price" does NOT mean you "must" call.

In this spot, you have someone who is loose who limped on the button. If he is so loose, then he is limping light a good amount of the time here. RAISING out of position when thta loose player has only put 1 BB into the pot may indicate to him that you intend to paly him for his stack. In that case, he will either FOLD, or put all his chips in right there.

If he does re-shove, you still have "room" to fold away an amount equal to about 10% your stack (900 bet - 150 in the SB = 750). If he folds you win.

Similarly, the Big Blind you said is TIGHT. Any raise oop by you will indicate to him HE will have to play for his stack. So exactly the same thing applies.

Contrast to the limp you actually make...

It is only about 25% of the time that 76s will flop a "continuable" flop.
By "continuable", I mean 2 pr+, and at least an 8 or 9 out draw.
Only those hands are "continuable" really, since versus a short stack, any 1 pr hand you flop will be VERY vulnerable, and betting out on that sort of hand when an opponent has little (or no) room to fold is dangerous.

Of those "continuable" flops, about 21% of them will be DRAWS.

Playing a draw versus a short stack is problematic here:
1) you are out of position, so leaidng the betting becoems difficult.
2) you are facing opponents who are likely to "stand" at any point, thus preventing a "cheap" draw.

So...

My response was geared toward your "read" info: a loose palyer who jsut limps, and a tight player in the big blind.

That gives you far more "leverage" to win this pot with some situational aggression, that your limp does not necessarily give. You could have EASILY lost far more in this hand than you stood o lose had you raised, and either opponent shoved on you.

I tried HARD to keep my answer from being "results oriented", as you showed the complete hand. But the simple fact is you got VERY lucky here to flop the best hand AND avoid his draw. RAISING pre-flop a slightly smaller than normal amount could have easily SAVED you from being in this "tricky" spot.

See?

Last edited by JDean; Tue Apr 12, 2011 at 09:50 PM..
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 02:51 AM
(#18)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Yes that makes sense and re-enforces what I already think about tournament play - that you have to be more aggressive than cash, and that sometimes to preserve your stack you have to attack with it.

Also, an underlying theme seems to be that you may as well attack pre-flop with an amount approximately equal to what you would put in over other streets. Not always of course, but I have seen that sometimes this type of play gets you further than limp-folding by pushing out real marginal hands.

Thanks as always JDean,
 

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