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BB Suited Slick What to do?

 
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BB Suited Slick What to do? - Wed Apr 13, 2011, 03:00 AM
(#1)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
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I was viewed as tight aggressive. When I bet I had it. Should I have checked the turn to showdown cheaper?

Yes I realize I am SB versus button now.

Last edited by HurtToSit; Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 03:20 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 04:46 AM
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JDean's Avatar
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Posts: 3,145
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Yes. Checking the turn "hit" is the way to go here, but I think your RIVER bet is far "worse" than your turn bet. Consider...

You hold a premium hand in the SB on pretty deep money here (you = 63BB, villian = 50+ BB).

Any time you are in a deep money situation, you must be highly aware of all the potential threat boards which are out there, and seek to exercise "pot control" with 1 pair hands. I say this because the deep money situation allows opponents to "widen" their entry standards to play more speculative hands, thus it becomes more possible a single pair hand will be no good. When you re-raise a small amount pre-flop (to 480 to go), rather than a more "sandard" re-raise (to somewhere between 600 and 750 to go), you are electing right up front to play a SMALL pot with your big "Drawing" Hand.

You MUST recognize the implications of this betting line on deep money:

1) You "let in" more spec hands beause you are only raising to an amount less than 10% the "effective stack" in total, and the call is only a bit under 5% the effective stack.

2) You cede much of the "power" of a normally sized C-Bet (~ half pot) due to the relatively small size of the pot on the flop in relation to the stacks in play.

3) You create in the mind of your opponent the possibility you do not have a truly strong hand to have raised so small. This is good if you flop top/top on a non-threat board, but can be very BAD for you if the board is all small, and especially draw heavy.

4) You will (usually) have to bet "stronger" to price out draws due to the smaller pot size since the overall "cost" of draws is less damaging to 50+ BB start stacks. Also, the deeper stacks carries a greater chance of winning MORE if a draw does hit.

.........................................

It SEEMS you were recognizing these thoughts, since you did not C-Bet your clean flop miss when a very draw heavy board fell; that is really quite good. Sure, you do not want to do this always, just like you do not want to C-Bet "always", but if you are going to pot control instead of representing a big over pair, this is definatively a good board for it.

When you bet the turn though, it is almost like you are STARTING to get off the pot control "horse" by leading for half pot on your K.

I will grant that you may have a case for the half pot bet here being for "information", but those sorts of bets are really more effective in LIMIT Hold 'Em. You must remember that your opponent can often give you just as much info by HIS bet sizing if you check, since this is not a very good board for top/top and no re-draw. You really want to think more of betting for value, or betting as a bluff in no limit. On a board as coordinated as this is on the turn, which are you doing?

Sure, half pot here will get a lot of really weak hands to fold, so making it isn't "awful", but half pot will also be small enough on deep money that a lot of DRAWS will stay...So as a VALUE bet you are really not getting called by a lot less than your top/top UNLESS they have a decent draw as well, right?

Are you REALLY going to force a lot of draws, especially potential 2 way draws, out of this pot for 5BB into a pot of 10BB, when the start stacks were 50+ BB? So you aren't really effectively bluffing, unless you think your image is such that the opponent will credit you with an AhXh AT LEAST, and fold out draws.

The effectiveness of this bet size as a bluff demands a LOT of info on things like your table image, the opponent's ability to fold, as well as truly effective ranging of the opponent, AND knowing that he is capable of making a range assessment of YOU.

Note: I do think your half pot turn bet would have been BETTER if you were ahead of more hands that might be here (say on a set or 2 pr), but with only top/top on this VERY coordinated board, not so much unless you have a TON of info on the opponent...

So I'll ask this question: Since you STARTED this as a small pot, and since you KEPT to that "theme" by not C-betting, why are you so quick to bet with what stands to be a pretty MARGINAL hand? Why not check/call a small bet, or check/fold to a big one since the pot IS so "small"?

On the river, when the 4th heart comes, you are COMPLETELY "off the small pot horse" when you bet 1400 into the pot...

The 2100 which was in there does not likely represent so much Tourney Equity for you that you really want to be firing 20% of the chips you STARTED WITH (1400, starting with a bit of 7k), to win it; not when ANY heart, any straight, any set, and any 2 pr has you crushed.

I recognize this can be seen as a "bluff" by you, and that's fine. But if you want to "sell" a bluff here, can you REALLY do so for less than all his chips? Remember: he has already called in 20% of his start stack with the only way to win being him making the best hand, can he REALLY fold the 2nd or 3rd nut now? AND...

Is winning that 2100 so important to you that you will risk losing most of your stack to go for it?

....

I honestly think that you should have maintained a much more "consistent" betting line throughout this hand.

Had you bet harder from the get-go, you might be able to fold out a lot more of his range that could run you down OR price that range more sternly to keep going. If he still called, you could have slowed down with a check/fold a lot less deep into this pot than you got yourself.

Since you did start out on a smaller pot size betting line, you probably needed to STICK to that line throughout, and take the chance you are folding the better hand as soon as the pot starts to grow out of hand on this threat leaden board. There is nothing "wrong" with a small pot betting line here if you ARE consistent. The trouble starts when you vary from that line once you have started it. In spots like these, I like to recall a quote from TJ Cloutier:

"Never Go Broke in a LIMPED POT"

...this is a spot where you can extend that to:

"Never loss a big chunk of your stack on deep money by trying too hard to win a SMALL pot"

OR

'You do not have to win EVERY pot"

OR even...

"Sometimes a good player folds the best hand"

Hope it helps.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 05:29 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:19 AM
(#3)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
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Still in tourney with the guy. Says he had the nut flush.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:20 AM
(#4)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
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66 to go. Thank you for such a detailed analysis. I appreciate your time here.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:23 AM
(#5)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
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He said the river ruined all his fun.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:43 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurtToSit View Post
Still in tourney with the guy. Says he had the nut flush.
I Believe him.

My personal thought, without having seen him play at ALL, was AhTx or Ah8x OR maybe 8h8x with the river a pretty desperate play.

I doubt seriously he can attempt a bluff on air because his shove gives you 3+ to 1 to call, and you are in there pretty deep.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:45 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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I'm watching you now btw...

9800 or so, with blinds at 1500/3k, in the SB.

40 left, ITM. Nice job.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:53 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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You just stacked thru the SB min raiser (from the BB) when you shipped AJc over his min raise with 33!

32k+ in chips now, NICE.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:55 AM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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BAH.

Very next hand, your QQ in SB runs into AK. He flop an A, and ended up with the boat to your AA/QQ.

Out 35th, but at least you moneyed up to $10.57 in a $3.30 MTT.

Nice job.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:55 AM
(#10)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
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Should let go of QQ? Out at 35th vs AK
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:56 AM
(#11)
HurtToSit's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
BronzeStar
Was ignoring Harrington yelling in my ear my M was a 2.3, 2.2, 1.9
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 05:58 AM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurtToSit View Post
Should let go of QQ? Out at 35th vs AK
No.

No way.

you are too short to NOT want a race, and doubling to more than 60k let's you go too much farther into up the pay levels to think aobut it.

If you lose a race, or even if you are dominated, so be it.

under 10BB (32k to start, blinds at 2k/4k) and with 2k already posted, I'm going every day of the week.

so what if you win $10.57 instead of $11.25 or some such...

you gave yourself a SHOT to double, and make the final table perhaps...THAT's what matters.

KQ/KJ/AJ/AT/22/33/77 MAYBE you can fold those...

QQ, no way.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 06:02 AM..
 
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?? - Wed Apr 13, 2011, 07:14 AM
(#13)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Agree with Jd 100 % the min 3bet was weak-- i am a firm believer in on-line tells, and if i am the villain in that hand-- you pretty much narrowed your range to Aks, Ako,Aqs - no way am i putting you on JJ+ and since i have pos. my cards dont really matter on that flop-- jmo monk

Gratz on the deep run ---
 

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