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Where did I go wrong??

 
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Where did I go wrong?? - Wed Apr 13, 2011, 09:12 PM
(#1)
Justice7575's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
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Hey guys I am new to online poker and am just trying to get some advice as to how I should have played this hand. My name is Justice7575

 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 11:33 PM
(#2)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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How I think you could have played this:

Good limp preflop with your low suited connector. Being out of position it is going to be very difficult to play 45s post flop unless you get really lucky and hit a strong hand. I don't like you betting into 3 people on the flop with your middle pair + gutshot. With 3 other people in the hand it is very possible someone has your middle pair beat. Also, your gutshot is not to the nut straight so it might not be best some of the times you get lucky enough to catch it. Check instead, try to keep the pot small. Big pots are for big hands, don't build the pot until you improve. Dennis would then bet and you could call. On the turn when you hit your gutshot straight, bet a lot more than $.10. Bet more like $1.00 - $1.40. As much as you think he will call. You want to get value for your made hand, as well as make any drawing hands pay too much to draw profitably. On the river, check!!! The 3 pairs the board, this hurts your hand. It does not help you in any way, but it could help improve your opponent. If you check and he overbets the pot or even pushes all-in, fold. If he bets a very small amount, consider calling.

My thought process on how the hand was played and how I would have read the situation:

The way things were played, there were several important points during the hand that give you clues about dennis's hand. First, he does not raise preflop. He probably does not have a premium hand such as QQ+ or AK. Depending on his play style, he could have checked preflop with small and medium pocket pairs. Odds are he is holding a random rag type hand. On the flop he makes a substantial reraise. There were still two people to act behind him, and you had bet into 3 people yourself. For him to reraise you here he must really like this flop. On the turn he only calls your minimum bet of $.10. There are flush and straight draws on the board, so this is actually a sign of weakness by him. He doesn't want to protect his hand from draws and he doesn't want to build the pot for value. He is probably worried you have him beat. So the river comes. You make a small bet into him. He reraises you with an overbet. This means one of two things. Either he thinks you are weak and is trying to bluff you, or he has made a very good hand on the river. Either way, you reraising him all-in is a very bad idea. If he is bluffing he will fold and you gain nothing. If he has made a big hand on the river he will always have you beat, or at worst tied with the same straight. Because of his very strong reraise on the flop, but check on the turn you can rule out hands like overpairs. If he had 99 or something similar he would have continued betting on the turn. If he had made the same straight as you on the turn, he would have continued betting as well. This basically leaves the possibility of two pair or a set. Because he went from calling your min-bet on the turn to reraising you BIG on the river, you can assume the 3 helped him. Either his two pairs turned into a full house or his set turned into a full house. This is the only possible hand that he would not be afraid of a straight anymore. Easy fold to his river reraise.


Sorry if I wasn't super clear about things here. It is late brain is foggy
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 11:37 PM
(#3)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
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You could have gotten away anytime he raised you. However, u didn't and it cost you ALOT. Give more respect!

JT
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 11:37 PM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Next time remove the showdown from the hand history. People can then give you a more realistic analysis. It is tough to know exactly how I would have approached the situation in the real world because I would not know the outcome until the hand is over.
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 11:42 PM
(#5)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Next time remove the showdown from the hand history. People can then give you a more realistic analysis. It is tough to know exactly how I would have approached the situation in the real world because I would not know the outcome until the hand is over.
You are raised twice from the BB............I am pretty sure you are getting away from this hand.

JT
 
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Wed Apr 13, 2011, 11:53 PM
(#6)
Justice7575's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
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Thanks for the advice. I still have a lot to learn. Just getting started with online poker. I was just so excited about my straight that I didn't look at the full house possibility. I tend to play in to hands that I shouldn't play, I think I need to learn when to get out of a hand, and also look at what they could have that has me beat not just what I have. Thanks again for the help guys.
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 12:06 AM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice7575 View Post
I was just so excited about my straight that I didn't look at the full house possibility.
As soon as I saw your raise on the river, I figured that's what you were thinking. I just lost a tournie yesterday with that same mindset -' omg, I made my straight, yes!'

Nooooo ....

I just wasn't even thinking about the other person's hand.

I seem to screw up more in the blinds, against other blinds - maybe because I'm playing with hands I'd never otherwise play with, against hands that other people would never otherwise play with. Yeah, hopefully this stuff'll come with practice (the more cautious approach)

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Apr 14, 2011 at 12:17 AM..
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 12:19 AM
(#8)
Justice7575's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
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Well I have read through some of the courses on here and when I first started out I played very tight and aggresive, the problem with that is I did very well, I was on an upswing when I started playing hands that I had no bussines playing. I am now on a downswing... But after tonight I am back in the class room trying to learn from my mistakes. I'll be playing a lot tighter and a lot more cautious tomorrow. Any added advice (even not about this hand) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 12:24 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Yeah, practice, classes, and advice, yeah.

This game looks so easy on it's face, like blackjack. But really it's turning out to be more like chess x8.

Lots of fun, but lots to learn!
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 01:53 AM
(#10)
Roy1313714's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 72
BronzeStar
I was the same when I first started. Need to be thinking about what they hold cuz he's thinking
about what you have... He slowed way down on the turn. That should tell you something....trips, 2pair. It was a learning moment 4u. We all have had them some learn& get better others think
they got unlucky. Keep it up
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 12:17 PM
(#11)
Justice7575's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
BronzeStar
Thanks for all the advice guys!
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 03:25 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
My thoughts on this one:

Preflop call is fine. Raise would be good against certain villain types but in a vacuum with no reads I prefer to complete the SB and see the flop with this holding.

On the flop I actually like leading out. Yes obviously someone may be ahead of middle pair, but most of their limping ranges will have missed completely. I think it's actually more likely we have the best hand right now, and even if we don't we have reasonable equity with our pair+gutshot... vs 99 for example we have over 30% equity. Definitely need to work on your bet sizing though, don't like the min-bet much at all because you'd prefer all their random overcard hands and gut shots that have equity to just go away. Instead of 1/4th pot I'd go 1/2 to 2/3rds on the flop. Also some of the better hands that will call us on the flop (87, A5, 66, etc) will have a very hard time continuing later in the hand as the vast majority of turn and river cards will be bad for them. Obv with reads don't try this vs. calling stations, but betting this flop serves to fold out hands that have equity like 2 overs, while also setting up a solid multi-street semi-bluff vs much of their calling ranges.

BB makes a strong range. At this point I wouldn't feel too excited about maknig trips or 2 pair, I'd be looking for the gut shot only (and that still could be drawing to a chop if he's got 64 already). He's got $8 behind, max implied odds are about 18-1 if we get his whole stack and we are about 11-1 to hit a 6 on the turn, but I don't think the implied odds are enough here because:

1) the 6 may only get us half the pot
2) If the 6 puts us in the lead, he will figure to still have equity (2 pair or set, plus 3 outs to chop with another 4 coming)
3) with a 4 straight on board, it will be very hard to get his whole stack when we're winning.

So I think this is a fold to his raise on the flop.

On the turn, again bet sizing, bet more like Rockerguy said. Minbetting .10c into a pot of $1.60 is basically like giving him a free card to fill up on you.

On the river our optimal line is probably bet/fold. Definitely fold to his river raise, this is a value line almost all the time and given the action sequence he will almost always show you a full house here.
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 10:18 PM
(#13)
Justice7575's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
My thoughts on this one:

Preflop call is fine. Raise would be good against certain villain types but in a vacuum with no reads I prefer to complete the SB and see the flop with this holding.

On the flop I actually like leading out. Yes obviously someone may be ahead of middle pair, but most of their limping ranges will have missed completely. I think it's actually more likely we have the best hand right now, and even if we don't we have reasonable equity with our pair+gutshot... vs 99 for example we have over 30% equity. Definitely need to work on your bet sizing though, don't like the min-bet much at all because you'd prefer all their random overcard hands and gut shots that have equity to just go away. Instead of 1/4th pot I'd go 1/2 to 2/3rds on the flop. Also some of the better hands that will call us on the flop (87, A5, 66, etc) will have a very hard time continuing later in the hand as the vast majority of turn and river cards will be bad for them. Obv with reads don't try this vs. calling stations, but betting this flop serves to fold out hands that have equity like 2 overs, while also setting up a solid multi-street semi-bluff vs much of their calling ranges.

BB makes a strong range. At this point I wouldn't feel too excited about maknig trips or 2 pair, I'd be looking for the gut shot only (and that still could be drawing to a chop if he's got 64 already). He's got $8 behind, max implied odds are about 18-1 if we get his whole stack and we are about 11-1 to hit a 6 on the turn, but I don't think the implied odds are enough here because:

1) the 6 may only get us half the pot
2) If the 6 puts us in the lead, he will figure to still have equity (2 pair or set, plus 3 outs to chop with another 4 coming)
3) with a 4 straight on board, it will be very hard to get his whole stack when we're winning.

So I think this is a fold to his raise on the flop.

On the turn, again bet sizing, bet more like Rockerguy said. Minbetting .10c into a pot of $1.60 is basically like giving him a free card to fill up on you.

On the river our optimal line is probably bet/fold. Definitely fold to his river raise, this is a value line almost all the time and given the action sequence he will almost always show you a full house here.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I have a lot to learn and it is such a blessing to have guys here to give me the advice I need. You havn't seen the last of me yet! I am trying my best to learn from my mistakes, better educate myself, get out there and play some more, and not make the same mistake twice. I think I will re read up on correct betting size.
 
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Fri Apr 15, 2011, 12:15 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice7575 View Post
Thanks for all the advice guys!
Yeah thx!
 
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Fri Apr 15, 2011, 10:18 PM
(#15)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
BronzeStar
Important axiom, "Don't go broke in a limped pot."

His raise and range on the flop imply a big hand here. two pair, 64, sets, 88/A7ish hands.. very many hands beat you.

You min bet and gave him the chance to flat with two pair here, which I'm certain has been discussed.

No one is this aggressive with an A7ish hand or 88s ...so tell me all of the hands on the river when he raises you put him on?
 

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