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was this just horrible play by all (inc. me)

 
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was this just horrible play by all (inc. me) - Thu Apr 14, 2011, 10:41 AM
(#1)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
PokerStars Game #60813308502: Tournament #385467726, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/04/14 10:36:18 ET
Table '385467726 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Wizardry159 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Vivili78 (2090 in chips)
Seat 3: Gery625 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: Gábor300 (1070 in chips)
Seat 5: EDUARD595 (1330 in chips)
Seat 6: bashy27 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: emilioqac (1650 in chips)
Seat 8: =nemethn= (1450 in chips)
Seat 9: Marika1408 (1440 in chips)
EDUARD595: posts small blind 10
bashy27: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bashy27 [Kc Th]
Gábor300 said, "nh"
emilioqac: folds
=nemethn=: folds
Marika1408: folds
Wizardry159: folds
Vivili78 said, "ty"
Vivili78: calls 20
Gery625: folds
Gábor300: folds
EDUARD595: calls 10
bashy27: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc Ks Ac]
EDUARD595: checks
bashy27: checks
Vivili78: bets 40
EDUARD595: calls 40
bashy27: raises 140 to 180
Vivili78: calls 140
EDUARD595: calls 140
*** TURN *** [Tc Ks Ac] [2c]
EDUARD595: checks
bashy27: checks
Vivili78: bets 200
EDUARD595: calls 200
bashy27: folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc Ks Ac 2c] [Kh]
EDUARD595: checks
Vivili78: bets 400
EDUARD595: folds
Uncalled bet (400) returned to Vivili78
Vivili78 collected 1000 from pot
Vivili78: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1000 | Rake 0
Board [Tc Ks Ac 2c Kh]
Seat 1: Wizardry159 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Vivili78 collected (1000)
Seat 3: Gery625 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Gábor300 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: EDUARD595 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: bashy27 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: emilioqac folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: =nemethn= folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Marika1408 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 11:49 AM
(#2)
Cheon57's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
From your position, I would have also like to have seen the flop at that price so I have no problem with just checking there.

Post flop, the board becomes pretty dangerous for 2 pair with a possible made straight as well as a flush draw on the board.

That being said, I don't see a problem with the check-raise to look for information on where you stand at that point although I believe a call would have been fine as well since you were last to act and with 2 cards still to come, your chances of bettering that 2 pair are not good.

In this particular situation with it being so early in the tournament, I am still looking to get a good read on my opponents range so want to gain information for use later as economically as possible.

The turn is a scary card as it not only makes the flush a valid hand but from your end puts you on the nut flush draw in addition to the 10's and K's for the full house.
Even so I think I would have probably folded here as well.

If I am seeing this correctly, it is very early in a SNG. (4th hand)
Was it a single or multi-table run?
What was the previous hand played?
Did Vil limp with big cards from previous position when he won the hand right before this one?

Folding, seeing the river improve your folded hand, and not seeing an actual showdown to know whether you folded the winning hand or not can raises doubts in the decision process at times but I believe in this situation seeing the way the hand was playing out, I believe you made a correct decision based on the information you had at the time but then I am a lot less aggressive than some others are so you may get a lot of disagreement with that strategy.
Just my .02
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 01:16 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
OK...

Pre-flop you get to see the flop for "free" in the BB. You hold KTo.
There is only 1 limper from the cut off position (LP), plus the small blind who call along.
You all are on relatively similar stack sizes, between the 65 to 100 BB range; this is "deep money".

The first thing I consider in this spot is this: What will the CO player limp, and what will the SB call in on?

You check your option with your marginal holding...

The flop comes A K T, with 2 clubs, and you flop bottom 2 pair.

At this point, I'm asking myself: "What hands would these opponents limp with here that have some value on this flop?"

Since you do not give any indications of your thoughts in this direction, I have to say that "typically" Big pocket pairs like AA/KK will not limp in voluntarily for fear of losing some playability in an un-wanted multi-way pot. The SB is much more likely to have done so in this spot, since he A) would hold a hand that can withstand a re-raise by you or the initial limper, and B) he is assured of this pot going to the flop no more than 3 way if he limps that big.

TT is a much more likely limp hand, but is also more "vulnerable" for an open limper in a multi-way pot, and with the high chance of at leas 1 overcard on the flop, TT is also a less likely limp-along hand for the SB.

AK also tends to be much more of a raising hand for a LP pot opener.

So of all the hands "ahead" of you on the flop, the most "worrisome" for you are QJ or AT.

Other typical "limp hands" for low limit MTTs, like Ax/>99/Kx/Qx and 2 random clubs, are all well behind you right now.

this is an example of a "Range Read".

Now...

Bottom 2 pr is a hand which more often than not stands to be "good" here. You check.

The initial limper bets 2BB into the 3BB pot, the SB calls, and you check/raise to a total of 9BB.

I like this play a lot if you know there is a good chance the initial limper will bet out. The check/raise takes the "aggression" you are showing to a 2nd level, and allows extra value to be put in the pot by a lot of draws and rag Aces who are not likely to believe you have flopped 2 pair here. Yes, there is the possibility you are "behind" QJ/AT, but those hands are also likely to re-pop you right now (before another club comes), thus allowing you to fold pretty easily. The amount you re-raise is well sized since it does not necessarily "commit" you here either...

Next...

Your 2nd level aggression does not work, and both call along. The 3rd club comes, giving you the nut flush draw now to go with your 2 pr.

I like your check here to be honest, because you really should be thinking about "pot control" since your first aggressive move didn't work on either opponent. I'm not sure I like your FOLD as much though...

The initial limper fires 200, a 1/3rd pot bet. The SB then calls, putting the pot at 1000. With 5 to 1 for a call, plus any "extra" you may win if you improve on the river, I have to think this is a call.

While you have to realize you MAY be behind right now (either to a flush, a straight, or an A2), there is still no guarentee of that fact based on betting this weak. Also, you are "closing the betting" on this street, so worst case is you can fold the river if no improvement comes for you, and continue on with 1100, or 55BB.You fold though...

You missed the chance to spike that K (or a club for the nut flush), and you miss the chance to check/raise the limper's 400 river bet, and win enough extra to have made seeing the river worthwhile.

Now...

If you had stated here that the open limper tended to play big hands "slowly", or if you had said that he had some other indication that AK/KK/AA/TT was in his late position limp range, I'd say your check/fold on the 3rd club turn was pretty astute. But as played, I think this may be just a bit TOO tight...

'Course seeing as how a 4th club, a K or a T may NOT have come, and you'd then have been in pretty deeply to fold for 400 more, there are WORSE things you can do than dump bottom 2 as early as you did. Also, if you did NOT hold the nut flush re-draw, I would agree 100% with your fold when you made it.

But playing it out exactly as it played, and considering the fact there are a LOT of people in these micro MTTs who will bet this way on a garbage A, as well as CALL (as the SB did) on JUST a Qx/Jx, this may be slightly too tight.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Apr 14, 2011 at 01:21 PM..
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 02:07 PM
(#4)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
as the game went on i got to see how the limper played and saw them limp with AK twice, QQ and AA, so the possibility of them having had AK on this particular hand is quite high, the SB in this hand went out two hands later so never got any other info on them other than they were probably just calling station and liked to chase everything down to the river.

i do feel as though i should of made the call on the turn, i sort of kicked myself as soon as i hit fold, so like i say i believe that all 3 of us played the hand badly. (especially if the limper did in fact have AK)

thanks again.
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 02:21 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post
as the game went on i got to see how the limper played and saw them limp with AK twice, QQ and AA, so the possibility of them having had AK on this particular hand is quite high, the SB in this hand went out two hands later so never got any other info on them other than they were probably just calling station and liked to chase everything down to the river.

i do feel as though i should of made the call on the turn, i sort of kicked myself as soon as i hit fold, so like i say i believe that all 3 of us played the hand badly. (especially if the limper did in fact have AK)

thanks again.
Don't feel overly bad about it.

Keep in mind, without read info this early, you COULD have been crushed, even after that river.

You fired your 1 "barrel", and it was a nicely strong move for that spot, and neither folded. that means your "descretion" in folding bottom 2 is not ALWAYS going to be bad there.

The "tilter" for me in my post was the nut flush re-draw you picked up; a club pops the river and you are beating a LOT of those slow-player's holdings that he has enough in HIS hand to call you on. As I said, without that Kc, I have no issue at all with your fold.
 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 02:31 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Dave (The Langolier)...

I'd be interested in your thoughts aobut check/calling the tun here on the strength of the re-draw you've picked up.

I am thinking it over here...

1 opponent, and I am definately sticking to what I said.

2 opponents though has me thinking a bit more about the validity of a call there...

'course why would the flush, if held by the SB, FLAT in this spot on a lesser club flush...

Presumably HE doesn;t have any more info than the op has, and a slow play of a made flush is more apt to lead to loss of value than more value...

He'd be better off triggering a check/raise right there on a made flush, wouldn't he?????

BAH!

this is why poker is such a great game!

 
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Thu Apr 14, 2011, 03:33 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Check option pre.

This hand isn't strong enough to get cute with on the flop, I would be betting out for value with bottom 2 on a coordinated board.

JD on the turn I like a bet/call line. We are still often going to be good with our 2 pair, and we have the nut flush draw to fall back on.

As played this is not a good fold, you're getting 5-1 with a 2 pair hand that is good right now some of the time, and has 13 outs to improve to the nut flush or a full house.

Dave
 

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