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what do you have to do?

 
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what do you have to do? - Sat Apr 16, 2011, 10:51 AM
(#1)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
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i had been sitting pretty tight, having seen 21% of the hands, i was the shortest stack and bubble for final table, i had won 7 out of 8 showdowns all with big hands or the absolute nuts, i hadn't played anything voluntarily other than 10's+ AK, AQ and AJ and they were only when in position.
 
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?? - Sat Apr 16, 2011, 10:59 AM
(#2)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Just wash your hands -man-- you want that call from the fool all day long-- chin up-- monk...
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 11:07 AM
(#3)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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I think you need to understand your own question.

"What do you have to do?"

For what? To win this hand? To make a right decision? To get him to fold? To get him to call?


I think you got what you wanted, and that's the poker end of it. Then random cards came out and you lost. You want that scenario all day long, because you're winning a ridiculous amount of them.

1,712,304 games 0.031 secs 55,235,612 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.665% 14.08% 00.58% 241120 9993.50 { KcTc }
Hand 1: 85.335% 84.75% 00.58% 1451197 9993.50 { KhKs }

I'll take 84% to win all day long for stacks.


What you don't want to do, is build the habit of just saying things in frustration that don't have meaning, nothing to learn from that. Mold your questions into intelligent thought provoking questions because everything else is a complaint of luck.

Which is silly in the end.

16% to hit = 16% to hit. You have to expect it will hit at times.
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 11:16 AM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
You could have tried raising preflop 3 x BB or 3.5 x BB and then shoving the rest of your chips on the the flop. At roughly 13BB stack size your push all-in preflop is perfectly fine too. What you want is to get all the chips in while your ahead. You accomplished that the way you played it, so it was probably the optimal play. Had you raised 3 x BB then shoved on the flop you would win much less chips when the small blind folds, but you might have survived to see another hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archide View Post
What you don't want to do, is build the habit of just saying things in frustration that don't have meaning, nothing to learn from that. Mold your questions into intelligent thought provoking questions because everything else is a complaint of luck.

Which is silly in the end.

I second what archide said!
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 11:24 AM
(#5)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
this links back to other threads i feel, i wait for good hands, i play a tight game and still get calls like this, yes 9 times out of 10 you want these calls and you will win them however over the last few days i have just been getting stung with weaker hands hitting against me, seems like every single hand i enter is stacked against me, i pushed aces last night lost to j9os, i have posted other threads where my PP are ahead and lost them, it brings you back to that is online just a fix question. just had this hand,


so i pull back the point wtf is the point in trying to play good quality poker, why sit and wait for your hands if raising and betting them gets you no where but out of the game?

i understand that last hand i didn't have enough to push off the flush draw and they got right odds for the call to hit it, but why call the raise OOP with 10 8?
so please someone tell me when i am supposed to play my hands? i have been blasted for playing AJ OOP and raising UTG with it, i just cannot win it seems, maybe time to quit online again, stick with live play where i do a hell of a lot better than i do online.
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 12:59 PM
(#6)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Most of the mouth breathing droolers that play here dont even realize what type of game you are playing, they dont notice you have folded 47 times in a row and this is your first raise.... they just look at their cards and say ooooh I have a good card
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 02:52 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post


i had been sitting pretty tight, having seen 21% of the hands, i was the shortest stack and bubble for final table, i had won 7 out of 8 showdowns all with big hands or the absolute nuts, i hadn't played anything voluntarily other than 10's+ AK, AQ and AJ and they were only when in position.
To answer the title question:

What you have to do here is KNOW your decision is/was correct. Let's look at it...

12BB of so behind your post, with just the SB against you means you are not folding this KK in almost ANY situation.

Anything (short of a check) you do is pretty well sticking you here; checking is probably too "tricky" in almost all situations by the way...

That leaves it up to you to decide what is the BEST way to get maximum value.

If you think this guy wil call your shove: Do that.

If you think he will call, or re-raise you, if you put out a raise of half your stack: Do That.

If you get 'em all in here, and he holds AA: So Be it.

KK is way to big to even THINK of folding in this spot (duh!), so as long as you got yourself into a situation where the bulk, if not ALL, of the chips go in when you are AHEAD (or "expect" you are ahead), then your decision is fine.

Everything that happens after that point is down to chance.

Remember: there is NO pre-flop situation where you 100% to win.

Dwelling on "bad luck" is spending time thinking aobut things you cannot control.

What you CAN do is put your efforts more into thinking aobut decisions where you might have done soemthing differently.
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 03:10 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post
this links back to other threads i feel, i wait for good hands, i play a tight game and still get calls like this, yes 9 times out of 10 you want these calls and you will win them however over the last few days i have just been getting stung with weaker hands hitting against me, seems like every single hand i enter is stacked against me, i pushed aces last night lost to j9os, i have posted other threads where my PP are ahead and lost them, it brings you back to that is online just a fix question. just had this hand,


so i pull back the point wtf is the point in trying to play good quality poker, why sit and wait for your hands if raising and betting them gets you no where but out of the game?

i understand that last hand i didn't have enough to push off the flush draw and they got right odds for the call to hit it, but why call the raise OOP with 10 8?
so please someone tell me when i am supposed to play my hands? i have been blasted for playing AJ OOP and raising UTG with it, i just cannot win it seems, maybe time to quit online again, stick with live play where i do a hell of a lot better than i do online.
I didn;t bash you for playing AJo oop in that thread. While I do agree that raising it oop, then calling a re-raise IS very loose, I know how the 25c SNGs paly. AJo will be "good" quite a bit of time even in that tenusous spot. (Not saying your play is GREAT, but it does have some validity if you have reads).

As for the KK hand, you did nothing wrong, except dwell too much on something you cannot control, after the hand finished.

For this AQ hand, you tell US...what might you have done differently, and why?

If the big stack was so loose, do you think he would call a shove behind his limp?

Do you think, REALLY think (not after seeing it), that your AQo was likely to be a favorite over his hand if he does call?

What do you think the implications of the 750 bet for your stack were if you missed this flop here?

.................................................. ...

I'll be really honest: one of the biggest "leaks" of players at the micro levels is a failure to note what the effect of calling raises will be on their stacks. This means "big stacks" are perfectly willing to call raises after they've limped, and then even call shoves. Heck, the thing that baffles ME is what is that OTHER guy, the one with the shorter stack, doing calling your raise, then check/folding the flop on????

So...

Is it really shocking the big stack calls a shove on a flush draw when he flops it? Is it so hard to believe his 1 in 3 shot gets there?

Bashy, nothing is guarenteed in poker. There are a lot of bad plays that people will make which get rewarded. The reason I'm not going deeply into things you might have done differently in this hand is that the "theme" of your thread here seems to be FRUSTRATION, and not really a desire to seek a re-hash of what you did in these 2 hands...

Toward that end, I'll not waste the time running down the AQo hand, but instead put the questions back on YOU to answer...

When you can "accept" suck-outs as part of the game without getting upset, and still phlegmatically examine your own play to see if there is something you may have done differently, then you are taking a BIG step toward improving your play overall.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 03:13 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 10:46 PM
(#9)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
yes i agree this thread is more about frustration, i walked away today and went played some live poker tonight instead, i do appreciate suck outs happen, frustration comes when they seem to come all at once, i also know i see more suck outs on line than i do live purely because of volume of hands being played.

the KK i wasn't going anywhere with them thats for sure, i got my money in good, that is the only solace i can take from that, i truly believe it was the right play with my stack at the time and would do the same over and over again in the same/similar situation.

the ace queen, i had position and my chip stack wasn't huge, i was pretty much going to have to go with it after i raised as i didn't have any fold equity after making the raise, my thought process was that the guy in the blinds was playing small to mid PP and trying to protect his blinds, the big stack i had on a raggy ace or a couple of picture cards, i figure if he has pair he is re raising not limping and flatting a raise, so with the ace high flop i was 99% certain i had the best hand there and shoved my remaining stack in, i did say earlier that i understand that the big stack was calling me all day long on his draw given that i didn't have enough of a stack left to push him off it and he was getting the right odds to chase it, i got my money in good again.

i think that when you hit a run of bad beats it does get frustrating and you need to vent, poker is the game to give you such frustration as no one plays the same everyone has a different idea of what a good hand is and every player has differing risks they will take, i won't call with suited gap connectors to a raise maybe something i should try to do, rarely do i call with 2 pictures to a raise, i try to play as good a poker as i can according to text books, sites like this and talking to other players, some "players" just have too much money and really don't care about the skill of the game and believe it is all about luck.

anyway my venting/frustration is over (for now) and my appologies for this essay.
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 11:08 PM
(#10)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Bashy honestly you are not too far away fro playing really good poker.

Ks I am all in easy. AQ cutoff, you need to be aware of yr opponents the stage of the game etc etc but the moment the big stack and one other call yr raise on the flop that should put you on high alert.

Check here or min bet, if you go all in and he has the draw you are giving the odds to call. You can re-evaluate on the turn represent the str and then he/they might lay down.

Was this a buy in tourney; PSO or SnG? All these differing scenarios are important because in a ring game this guy would fold. Here his stack is so big and early in the blinds that he can take the chance to fill his draw. you do not have that luxury.

I see you as a player with big potential, you just have to factor the tiny nuances of so many indefinable unknowns into yr game and the results will come.

TC

I am patenting this phrase btw
Quote:
you just have to factor the tiny nuances of so many indefinable unknowns into yr game and the results will come.








TC

Last edited by topthecat; Sat Apr 16, 2011 at 11:11 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011, 11:21 PM
(#11)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
thanks topthecat

the KK was a SnG and the AQ was a PSO game.

i guess i felt checking, min betting the flop would look really weak, also would give the other 2 a chance to out draw me, i appreciate that the shove gave the big stack good odds to call with his flush draw but i didn't have him on that i genuinely thought he had raggy ace or 2 pictures and was hoping that one of the pictures was a jack, i wanted the call as obviously i wanted (needed) to double up my stack.

it is all just part of the game, i have had many arguments with friends and family about poker as most of them see poker as a game of LUCK, i said the only time LUCK ever comes into poker is when you have all your chips in the middle, if you have chips behind you then it isn't about luck it is about outwitting and out playing your opponents.

again my sincerest appologies for this thread being spawned from frustration.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 01:32 AM
(#12)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post
thanks topthecat

the KK was a SnG and the AQ was a PSO game.

i guess i felt checking, min betting the flop would look really weak, also would give the other 2 a chance to out draw me, i appreciate that the shove gave the big stack good odds to call with his flush draw but i didn't have him on that i genuinely thought he had raggy ace or 2 pictures and was hoping that one of the pictures was a jack, i wanted the call as obviously i wanted (needed) to double up my stack.

it is all just part of the game, i have had many arguments with friends and family about poker as most of them see poker as a game of LUCK, i said the only time LUCK ever comes into poker is when you have all your chips in the middle, if you have chips behind you then it isn't about luck it is about outwitting and out playing your opponents.

again my sincerest appologies for this thread being spawned from frustration.
I think that you have the skills to nullify any luck or variance.

Take a look at some of the live videos and play some low stakes cash afterwards. It is like candy from babies with /without premium cards but never outstay your welcome. be there half an hour take your profits and run, it works even with one table.

All i can manage, i am such a man i am incapable of multitasking.

TC
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 06:41 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post
thanks topthecat

the KK was a SnG and the AQ was a PSO game.

i guess i felt checking, min betting the flop would look really weak, also would give the other 2 a chance to out draw me, i appreciate that the shove gave the big stack good odds to call with his flush draw but i didn't have him on that i genuinely thought he had raggy ace or 2 pictures and was hoping that one of the pictures was a jack, i wanted the call as obviously i wanted (needed) to double up my stack.

it is all just part of the game, i have had many arguments with friends and family about poker as most of them see poker as a game of LUCK, i said the only time LUCK ever comes into poker is when you have all your chips in the middle, if you have chips behind you then it isn't about luck it is about outwitting and out playing your opponents.

again my sincerest appologies for this thread being spawned from frustration.
No appologies necessary.

But your time is better spent thinking thru a hand, as you did in your reply to the AQ post, than worrying aobut it.

You had reasons to do the smaller than shove raise (let's you get away with some "life" on misses in a flat pay event/he isn't likely to fold hands like small pp anyway, etc). then when you hit, you had enough of your stack in to stand. You want him calling on flush draws all day, but you know you will lose 1 in 3 of those...

simple.

Glad to see you off steam.

Last edited by JDean; Sun Apr 17, 2011 at 06:46 AM..
 

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