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curious, about this play,

 
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curious, about this play, - Sun Apr 17, 2011, 10:55 AM
(#1)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
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so i know i'm early position, the blinds are coming round and i have 10 BB's left, i figure that i would rather get my chips in with a semi decent hand than have to go with total garbage from the BB, so i think my play here is as good as it can be in all honesty, feel free to point out if my thinking is wrong.
my question is, is the guy next to act right to play the way that he does? as this is something that i wouldn't dream of doing, so i'm curious as to whether this is the right play from him, whether he should of folded or flatted to allow more players to enter the pot, i only ask incase i find myself in a similar position to the villian in this hand.

additional info:

at this point i had played 6 hands from 41 (17% i think), 5 of them from the BB when checked/limped to me, i had been to showdown twice, one i had won with a rag hand from the BB and 1 i had lost with ace king to pocket 10's. (where all my chips had gone)

Last edited by bashy27; Sun Apr 17, 2011 at 11:08 AM.. Reason: additional info.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 12:00 PM
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archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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Ok so I'll make the point that you can see 11 more hands for just 60 chips and top 9% beat ATo so you could find a better spot most likely.

To be honest I fold here and shove a lot of the BTN/CO/HI-Jack spots here based on how much equity the hand will give me.

This hand doesn't give you much equity when called. You're going to see a lot of PPs and better aces. The occasional idiot with KJ I guess too

You normally don't want to shove 10BBs into the entire field, shoving 10BB isn't to just shove because your short, it's to pick up the blinds or when you have equity in the hand when called.

Quote:
my question is, is the guy next to act right to play the way that he does?
Yes if you we in the CO and he was the BTN, or he was in the blinds and you were the BTN.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 12:09 PM
(#3)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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Good to see ya back Arch where u been hiding?
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 12:15 PM
(#4)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
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i see what you are saying, i guess i was more worried that i would have to ship with garbage at a later point, this was only the 2nd ace i had seen (maybe i gave it more value than it actually has) my mindset was also i have 10BB i'm in push/fold mode, i guess i did over value the hand and pay too much attention to my stack size, i more than likely could of folded it and looked for a better spot later. thanks.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 01:46 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Factors to consider:
1) Can the open limper FOLD to a shove by you?
2) Are there any "table sheriffs"?
3) What is the structure of this event so you can have a better handle on your "True M".

.................................................. .................................................. .............................

1) Can the open limper FOLD to a shove by you?

If not, then you must be assured your have enough "equity" with ATo to even consider entering here. If he is "immune" to the 22% stack loss you represent to him, then you MUST have +ev agaisnt this limper to go.

Same goes for the BB.

As played, you got EXACTLY what you "wanted", KJ re-shoved you, making you a bit under a 60% fav.

But if you consider you are NOT folding out AQ/AK (or even AJ) very often with your push (are you?), and that you are not folding out most pocket pairs because your stack represents such a small loss to msot your table (about 14% or less), ATo is pretty risky.

2) Are there any "table sheriffs"?

Your chip stack represents a 14% chip loss (or less) to most of those acting behind you. This means the presence of "sheriffs" can easily lead to a multi-way pot in which your ATo will not play very well at all. Not only are you facing a reasonable likelihood that any BETTER hand is not folding behind you, but if it does go multi-way, your hand does not have enough "strength" to push KQ/KJ/QJ below aobut 40% equity, and even Kx/Qx/Jx will have around 35% equity versus you.

This means the looser this table is calling, the more valid is a "stand" on ATo here. How loose WAS the table calling?

3) What is the structure of this event so you can have a better handle on your "True M".

Oddly enough, whether or not ATo is "enough" to make your stand is really effected in large part by the blind/ante STRUCTURE of this tournament.

Consider...

You have 10.5 BB now, but what will the blinds go to on the NEXT level? How much time do you have before they go up?

In many on line tourney structures, you can expect about 1 "orbit" at a full table per blind level. If that blind increase is very CLOSE to happening (meaning before you get to the BB/SB from UTG +1), and if the structure dispenses with a 30/60 "intermediate" blind level (goes straight to 50/100), then your ship here on ATo makes a lot more sense.

I say this because after you reach 50/100, you have almost ZERO "fold equity" left in your stack. Think about it...

At the 50/100 blinds, your 420 stack will represent just a 270 call, for a possible 570 "win" for any BB. This is quite close to the "critical" 2 to 1 mark that a lot of players will tend to "sheriff" short stacks quite lightly from the blinds.

At least right here, your shove is still into a pretty SMALL pot (40 + 40BB + 20SB = 100), and your STACK represents a 14%+ "loss" to most of the stacks at this table.

I'm not saying I DIS-AGREE with Archide about the validity of "waiting" 1 more orbit to take perhaps a 50/50 shot at picking up a BETTER hand, but unless there is a 30/60 blind level in there, and unless I feel I can get thru THIS set of blinds at 20/40, we may have to pick up a MUCH bigger hand than ATo in the next orbit to make passing up this spot worthwhile.

So...

Considering all the factors, I think I'd personally lean toward FOLDING this, paying 1 more set of blinds, and standing on the next orbit, either before the BB as "first in vig", or in the BB if I must.
 

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