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stupid or genius?

 
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stupid or genius? - Sun Apr 17, 2011, 12:46 PM
(#1)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
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i sort of lean towards the stupid end of the scale on this play.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 01:45 PM
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archide's Avatar
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Before anyone answers this I think Bashy you should post a list of all the hands you are likely to be called by.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 01:58 PM
(#3)
bashy27's Avatar
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well the hands that are likely to call an all in i would like to think would be AK, kk or aces, in short i should be only be getting called by hands that beat me or are 50/50, although you could open the range up slightly to 10's+, any ace 10+, thats what i would assume would be calling me in an ideal world.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#4)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
This is a PSO game, yes? If so, I would play it, but not all in pre flop. Level 2, this early is a PSO tourney you are going to get players calling with ace/anything or king/anything, so if they floped an ace or king, you'd be galloping down diarrhoea drive with no saddle, so to speak. I'd reckon a more sound decision would of been to maybe just call, or maybe a small - mid raise.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 02:37 PM
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tomrankin51's Avatar
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Before all of that, lets discuss playing QQ against two callers and a re-raise.

Right first off - QQ. Very good premium hand. You are playing this. You know that. But do you know the statistical reasoning for doing so? It is 9-1 (10%) that someone has either AA or KK. That means for every 9 times you have QQ, somebody else will have AA or KK. So, you were right to do so.

However, the way you played this was suicidal. This early in a tournament you don't want to stack off with QQ. You had two limpers and a pathetic re-raise. There was nothing to say everyone would put their chips in, and you had a goodly amount left to see a flop with 9-1 the best hand. If you had raised less, say 250-300, then you would have gotten probably the same outcome yet lived to fight another day if things went badly. Note : calling with a premium hand is not winning poker unless in very specific circumstances!! Raising is the way to go. I can post some more stats on why this is if it helps.

"But I won all the chips!" you say. Yes, you did - this time. There will be other times that someone has AA, KK, AK (or even just an A or K), and the 2/3rds of the time that their A3o or K2o flops and your Q doesn't, you will likely post it in the bad beats forum!!

Basically - you rightly played the best hand aggressively, and tried to isolate the limpers, however, the best way to do that was not risking your tournament life in the first 15 mins. A simple 4x the initial raise, and the confidence to outplay someone out of position with a worse hand than yours was all that was needed!

(BTW, I say it was too early to range anyone other than very stock deductions. Another reason for discretion early on :-) )

Last edited by tomrankin51; Sun Apr 17, 2011 at 02:40 PM..
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 02:48 PM
(#6)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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What you do when you say only a better hand would call me, is say that you have already gotten all the value you think you will get.

OK so no worse hands will call. So the shove is not to get more chips from worse hands, the shove here then almost acts as a bluff, but what are you bluffing?

A bluff is designed to push off better hands, we know that there are no better hands which fold.

The only thing this shove does is get you the dead money on the table, and get called by better hands a majority of the time (or flipping) with the occasional JJ calling off like a moron.

QQ is too big of a hand to shut down the table with a couple limpers. You raise, and hope to get heads up. You want to squeeze out a little more value.

Think about not your hand, but the hand in comparison to possible holdings and think about the best value decision. Sometimes the best value is in checking, or calling, sometimes it's in shoving.

This time it was in raising enough that LP does not make a call, but you might get a weak caller up front. See a flop and play post flop against someone limp/calling OOP to hit their set or "see a flop."

When you have a hand like this.. pause.. think through a couple of thoughts, and make a decision on those thoughts.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 03:01 PM
(#7)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
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i am fully aware this was a suicidal way to play the queens, one of the reasons i posted it here so that others may see and learn from it, i got lucky for sure against 3 other callers, finding the balance on how to play these sort of hands is crucial to the improvement of your game, in another thread it shows where i raised pre flop with them and laid them down on the flop to a king high board, i was "wrong" to do that with the way the hand played out and i saw what "beat" me, however i feel that at that point the fold was the right thing to do, it will also probably be the right fold 9 times out of 10, this however was not the right way to play them and like i said in my original post i lean towards the stupid end of the scale on how i played it this time, as this is a poker school i feel that we should be able to post various aspects of playing certain hands so that all of us can learn and improve.

but do you think that this validates the saying i here so often at on line poker sites, stupidity always gets rewarded? that its fixed? etc

i'm still on a learning curve and its one of the reasons i am posting so many hands, it helps me and hopefully helps others too.
 
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Sun Apr 17, 2011, 06:09 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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What matters, again, is what you were THINKING when you decided to shove.

In almost all cases, shoving here is going to reult in you "value owning" yourself. That happens when you have a good hand, but you bet in such a manner that ONLY a better one can possibly call. Very "ick" to do that to yourself...

But looking at the hands that DID call you here, if you KNEW ahead of time that this is the sort of range they'd call you on, then this can be considered a pure "shove for value".

The key difference is that you "know" the opoponents you are against are poor enough players to call this shove with far less, but if you bet LESS you may well allow a wide range of wierd "spikes" OR you may find it difficult to get the same value from these opponents on a lot of flops....

So whether this is stupid or not relies entirely upon WHY you shoved your QQ here.
 
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Mon Apr 18, 2011, 02:54 AM
(#9)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bashy27 View Post
but do you think that this validates the saying i here so often at on line poker sites, stupidity always gets rewarded? that its fixed? etc
Those that talk about rigged sites etc are those posting their bad beats every five minutes. They are not learning. They believe in luck and chance when it comes to Poker. Always someone or something to blame - and you always see the first post be a one line which goes "why did you shove with KK?" or something similar. And then they say "I don't care its all rigged anyway", yet continue to play here. They are bad players - never interested in how to improve. Congratulations - you are not one of them lol!

The reason "stupidity gets rewarded" is down to those players who are loose and unable to lay a hand down. Compared to someone who will play only premiums, of course they are going to be "rewarded" more. They are playing a high volume of hands and seeing them as far as they go. They're more likely to hit something, then play it aggressively.

If you take the time to look up some of the statistics, you'll soon see the likelihood of things like hitting the flop, or drawing to a flush. By taking notice and validating the mathematics of the situation, you'll soon see that stupidity isn't rewarded - it is to be exploited :-)
 
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Mon Apr 18, 2011, 04:46 AM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
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Posts: 751
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You're right bashy. This is either an awesome play or a terrible one...I'm leaning toward awesome here. If an early exit doesn't scare you this is the best time in a PSO to make plays like this. Clearly with the garbage that called you, you can get called by much worse than your QQ at this table, and I wouldn't hesitate to shove any QQ+, maybe even JJ for value. Were you able to pick up any reads on the players' calling ranges prior to this hand? If I know some idiot is going to call, I will gladly open shove 75 BBs with AA.

Those guys seem to have really wide ranges--gotta assume if they'll call A3 suited and KJ off (not to mention A4 off--jeez!), that 66+ are all fair game (and all absolutely crushed by your QQ save AA, KK, QQ).

If based on your experience at the table you expected to be called by all that trash, I think it was a good play. And the wider the calling ranges you were facing the more +EV it was.

On the other hand if you didn't know those players were that terrible...this is a terrible play. Expect to be called by 10 10+ and AK and AQs+ I think. I'll sometimes make a call here with hands that weak under the assumption that "only an idiot would push 50 BBs here, and I'm ahead of an idiot's range, which often includes any ace. Really though, I think only QQ+, AK (not really, but since they have an A and a K it's less likely you have AA or KK) should be calling you, and QQ sucks against that range, and wins the petty blinds the rest of the time. I'd prefer to either call and setmine QQ (you'd have such a deceptive hand) or 3-bet to 150 or so hoping to isolate and get position on the original raiser.
 
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Mon Apr 18, 2011, 07:03 AM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archide View Post
Before anyone answers this I think Bashy you should post a list of all the hands you are likely to be called by.
That is a great answer.

Because he is either "value owning" himself at any "reasonable" table:

He folds out worse, and gets called by BETTER only.

The only likely "call" he gets that he is "ahead" of is a pure RACE with AK, and it is probably too early in the event to race for all his chips.

BUT...

Seeing what DID call this shove, if he KNEW these guys would stack off so lightly, then tis could be a "shove for value".

Like...

Let's say this is a hyper-turbo, and you have this action.
the structure there is so "fast" that people WILL call on a very wide range, in hopes of getting lucky.

There is no sense in those games of NOT getting em all in pre-flop since you WILL get called by far less pre-flop, but a ton of flops will "dry up" that action. So if calls by less are highly likely, you can make a case for getting em in early.

I want to stress STRONGLY though:

In MOST CASES, this is not a good play at all.
 

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