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Ice Cream, Crime, Poker

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Ice Cream, Crime, Poker - Tue Apr 19, 2011, 12:26 AM
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DougThomas's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
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I have a Masters Degree in Criminology and am finishing up my PhD in Criminology. I teach Criminal Justice at the 2nd largest University in the USA. The next time someone starts trying to link online Poker, or Live Poker, to criminal activity tell them about the following observation:

It can be shown that increased ice cream sales are in a direct correlation to the increase in crime! According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report it can be shown that when sales of ice cream are at their highest levels of any given year that crime is also at the highest levels at that same time every single year. Why?

Ice cream sales peak during the summer; the level of all crime is the highest during the summer also. This is because during the summer more people buy ice cream to cool themselves off with. During the summer more kids are out of school contributing to an increase in juvenile crime. Also; more people leave their windows open so that makes homes easier targets for crime to occur and also people that are hot and uncomfortable tend to become violent quicker. What does any of this have to do with Poker?

Simply put; Poker does not contribute to domestic violence, child abuse, rape, or addiction any more than any other legal activity. Currently; the crime rate in the United States is at a 45 year low. The amount of criminal activity per person is the same as it was in 1964. Since online poker in the last 8 - 9 years has taken off crime has actually decreased by app~ 20%. If Poker caused crime that number should have increased not gotten lower. If anything one could show a direct correlation in the popularity of Poker and a decrease in crime. As Poker has gotten more popular the crime rate has decreased.

Just remember this: Politician's like to use statistics like drunks like to use lightpoles. Drunks and Politicians both use statistics for support and not enlightenment.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 01:17 AM
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mcrissinger's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,650
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What drunk likes to use light poles? Those things give me splinters. I prefer street signs or walls. Walls are best. They tend not to move.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 12:52 PM
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Mmmm Fish's Avatar
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Posts: 705
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Hey Doug, I'm interested in your take on this point.

The people arrested and the sites were indited on fraud. The media seems to be latching onto the allegation that some transactions were represented as the sale of golf balls instead of poker bankroll.

If true, I don't think the sites were fraudulent. If they told me, they were going to make the transaction look like golf balls, but were realing depositing the money in my account, there is no fraud.

I might committ fraud with my bank if I know the true nature of the transaction but go ahead with it and trick the bank into sending money where they shouldn't.

So it would be the player, not the site that committed fraud in that case.

What do you think Doug?
 
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possible - Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:35 PM
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DougThomas's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
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You could look at this in the most extreme case and call it fraud, in other words technically it might be fraud. However in real life this would not be fraud. Why? Because in order to prosecute the people arrested the prosecution has to pass what is known as "The Reasonable man Test".


That simply means; would any reasonable adult consider this fraud. I and the vast majority of other people would not because; no money ever disappeared. The money was sent from the banks to players accounts. The money was either spent (lost) or more money was won using the original "seed" money.

All along the way the banks and Federal regulators could track the money. The sites took their rake just like a B+M casino would. None of the money was ever misplaced. If you took 100 bucks from your bank account and played on 1 of the sites you could track down exactly what happened to your money, hence no fraud. Fraud means to deprive someone of their use of their money, by deceptive means and that did not happen.

Fraud would occur if someone had proved that the games were rigged. As long as the games are fair it would be hard to prove fraud. The government really does not want this case to go to trial. The gov. just wants more control, and when they get that the sites will be welcomed back, mark my words. Thank you for the question.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 11:42 PM
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brkn80's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
I hope you are right Doug. Have you looked at the indictment, and if so do you think Pokerstars will survive ( be allowed) in the US market after legislation gets passed.
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 07:32 AM
(#6)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrissinger View Post
What drunk likes to use light poles? Those things give me splinters. I prefer street signs or walls. Walls are best. They tend not to move.

My keyhole moves
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 09:32 AM
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TARIQ06's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 380
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[QUOTE=DougThomas;274736]You could look at this in the most extreme case and call it fraud, in other words technically it might be fraud. However in real life this would not be fraud. Why? Because in order to prosecute the people arrested the prosecution has to pass what is known as "The Reasonable man Test".


That simply means; would any reasonable adult consider this fraud. I and the vast majority of other people would not because; no money ever disappeared. The money was sent from the banks to players accounts. The money was either spent (lost) or more money was won using the original "seed" money.

All along the way the banks and Federal regulators could track the money. The sites took their rake just like a B+M casino would. None of the money was ever misplaced. If you took 100 bucks from your bank account and played on 1 of the sites you could track down exactly what happened to your money, hence no fraud. Fraud means to deprive someone of their use of their money, by deceptive means and that did not happen.




doug you sound like a real intelligent guy who for once know what he is talking about instead of preaching the chicken little phrase"the sky is falling" i am curious on your input as i am a accountant by trade, usc(gamecocks) class of 96..do you think it will take the federal govt. to rewrite tax laws specifically for online poker before it is allowed in the usa, or do you think its the govt. looking for ps to pay a hefty fine to help restart our fallen govt...
 
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Proping up our government - Wed Apr 20, 2011, 03:59 PM
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DougThomas's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
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Good questions, I think the US government will have to write some new tax laws, hell they do so every year anyway. Once PokerStars and the other sites cough up some cash they will be back in business. They might look a little different though. I have no problem sending in a money order to fund my account and I think most other people would not have a problem with that either.

This would eliminate the banks participation on the front end of the transaction. The sites could payout in Money orders too if they wanted to. Just eliminate the banks envolvement as much as possible. That would take away a great deal of the governments argument of fraud and money laundrying. I won 5,000 in the Florida Lottery and that is how I got paid, they cut me a money order and I went to my bank and cashed it. No problem, just showed my ID and got my cash.

When you buy a money order you have to pay for it with cash, which eliminates people playing off of credit, that keeps their chance of overspending low. In the long run these sites will be back allowing US players, it will be alittle different though.
 

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