Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

Thoughts please.

 
Old
Question
Thoughts please. - Tue Apr 19, 2011, 11:02 AM
(#1)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Input wanted for Pre river betting and odds of hitting straight on river and opponent also hitting higher straight also (like this hand).

Felt like such an idiot after the showndown, not placing him with a six in his hole cards.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 12:23 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
You limp with AQh (WHY you do this on a sub-15BB stack is un-clear, but if this is a "ladder climber" event, such as PSO, there MAY be a reason for it).

You miss the flop.

Continuing to draw at your over cards by putting more chips in this pot (either with bets/raises or calls) means you must recognize the difference between "clean outs, and dirty outs" if you are now BEHIND, plus making an assessment of whether your un-paired AQs is actually AHEAD in this hand.

see this: http://pokerterms.com/dirty-outs.html
and this: http://www.poker-strategy.org/default.aspx?tabid=270

The fact you may "improve" your hand, but that the opponent improves to an even BETTER hand, is a situation you must often account for in your read range of his potential holdings.

I think those 2 links will answer the BULK of your actual question.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Apr 19, 2011 at 12:28 PM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
(#3)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
I have to admit, I rarely (25 - 30% of hands that i see the flop in) give any major thought to the actual 2 cards my opponent has (instead concentrating on the overall hand he could have), leaving practically giving no thought on how it impacts my outs.

Hopefully with your input and after that hand, I'll be able to give better thought to dirty outs.

Thanks for the input.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 01:46 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
With less than 12 bb's I would be open shoving AQs here, personally.

As played, don't like your river line. You have the bottom straight, make a pretty big bet relative to the pot, and get min-raised. This line from the villain is almost always a monster unless you've seen him bluff like this (which is rare). He can hold a 6, and the board is paired so straights aren't even the nuts.

It's going to be very hard to get value from worse on this river card given that everyone has shown weakness all the way. I think I would prefer a check/call or a bet/fold line depending on the villain. I would probably go about 300 and fold to a raise if I went bet/fold, the low end of the straight isn't beating anything in his value raising range, we only have a bluff catcher when he raises this river.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
(#5)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
I initially didn't put him on much because he was making a lot of all-ins in a relatively small time span, getting folded every time, except once when i think he had QQ. so If anything, the worst i put him on was maybe AA, maybe Ace something.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 03:04 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
[QUOTE=TheLangolier;274665] With less than 12 bb's I would be open shoving AQs here, personally.

[QUOTE]

Agree 100%.

I Didn't post the entirety of my thinking aobut your pre-flop play because that wasn't the question. all I said is that in a PSO Event, I can see why you might NOT shove this pre-flop here...

Of course if this is a PSO, you are also not putting ANYMORE into the pot without the nut hand if you can help it.

If you start out limping this stack, you gotta continue that line by limp/calling (at most) on the non-nut river hand. you are insta-folding after limping in at ANY TIME before the river.

(the only "exception" I can think of is if you intended a "stop and go" open shove on any flop with your AQs, but THAT play is highly risky)

The board is paired, so if you wanted to play "cautiously" by not open shoving, you MUST continue to play cautiously by check/calling a small river bet and check/folding a big one on the river. If you do NOT do this, then you are totally negating the reasons that make a marginal play like limping AQs with a >12BB stack in the first place.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Apr 19, 2011 at 03:44 PM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 03:46 PM
(#7)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Sounds good. Thanks again.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 19, 2011, 06:26 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by havocofsmeg View Post
I initially didn't put him on much because he was making a lot of all-ins in a relatively small time span, getting folded every time, except once when i think he had QQ. so If anything, the worst i put him on was maybe AA, maybe Ace something.
Well AA isn't consistant at all with play on prior streets to the river, he limped pre and never bet. Ace something ok, but keep in mind in this case he did not go all in, he min-raised the river. Weak players tend to do this with very strong hands. They know they should raise, but they're scared you won't call.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com