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Poker is GAMING not GAMBLING

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Poker is GAMING not GAMBLING - Tue Apr 19, 2011, 03:54 PM
(#1)
Scintle's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Got a reply from one of my senators. She said that the law the FBI is using says you can't transfer money via check or transfer for illegal GAMBLING. But poker is not gambling. Poker is GAMING. I've never gotten into it but it's my understanding that there are millions of people paying for internet games as i write this. Is poker excluded from this list because we don't have to take on a fantasy identity to play?

Is the FBI going to shut down all these games too? Clearly, the FBI feels that shutting down online poker is more imporatnt that fighting TERRORISM, BANK ROBBERS, KIDNAPPING, MULTIPLE MURDERERS OR ORGANIZED CRIME. Maybe the FBI feels that everyone who plays in an online game is part of organized crime? Hide your children! The FBI has more money and people than it needs!! First it was shutting down childrens daycare for showing videos, now it's online games. Ooooh the FBI is sooooo brave! They have made a laughingstock of themselves and the USA!

Make sure when you write your Congress that you emphaisze the poker is not Gambling anymore than playing World of Warcraft is gambling! Poker is Gaming!
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:08 PM
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TARIQ06's Avatar
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Posts: 380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scintle View Post
Got a reply from one of my senators. She said that the law the FBI is using says you can't transfer money via check or transfer for illegal GAMBLING. But poker is not gambling. Poker is GAMING. I've never gotten into it but it's my understanding that there are millions of people paying for internet games as i write this. Is poker excluded from this list because we don't have to take on a fantasy identity to play?

Is the FBI going to shut down all these games too? Clearly, the FBI feels that shutting down online poker is more imporatnt that fighting TERRORISM, BANK ROBBERS, KIDNAPPING, MULTIPLE MURDERERS OR ORGANIZED CRIME. Maybe the FBI feels that everyone who plays in an online game is part of organized crime? Hide your children! The FBI has more money and people than it needs!! First it was shutting down childrens daycare for showing videos, now it's online games. Ooooh the FBI is sooooo brave! They have made a laughingstock of themselves and the USA!

Make sure when you write your Congress that you emphaisze the poker is not Gambling anymore than playing World of Warcraft is gambling! Poker is Gaming!


when a person can loose his enitre fortune, house, car, savings and family on world of warcraft, the you might have a case, like it or not poker is gambling, but you should have the right to gamble your life away if you choose as some people smoke their life away with cigs and cigars..try another point of view, that is all i am saying..gl
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:15 PM
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sharkatack89's Avatar
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Have you seen me play poker. Trust me. What I do is Gambling not gaming. Now, back to WoW. -Cookies
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:20 PM
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autodafe20's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TARIQ06 View Post
when a person can loose his enitre fortune, house, car, savings and family on world of warcraft
They have, not to mention the deaths.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:23 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
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Posts: 1,089
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Poker is a gambling game of skill. Of course it is gambling though. You are calculating the odds of winning/losing then wagering money on those perceived odds.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:26 PM
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XXChris123's Avatar
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a few days after attacking poker Obama announces they are disbanding the strike force against internet porn
porn is ok
poker is bad
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:29 PM
(#7)
sharkatack89's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXChris123 View Post
a few days after attacking poker Obama announces they are disbanding the strike force against internet porn
porn is ok
poker is bad
Don't know if Poker is Bad. (Depends on whether I'm winning or not.
But Porn is definately not ok, IT'S GREAT.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Scintle's Avatar
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TARIQ I have to disagree. Surely it is GAMING. And surely you can loose a lot on it. But it is not simply betting on whether the ball hits the red or the black or which raindrop comes down fastest. It is betting on your own preparation and skill. You can loose a lot an BINGO too. But no matter how well YOU prepare for each game it will not change the outcome that is based on pure chance. There IS an element of chance but it is blended into skill and preparation.

There are chess tournaments - I think poker is more complicated than chess. In chess the variables are the same at the beginning of each game. In poker they are different each hand! Chess masters have won millions.

There are ALL KINDS of games that have tournaments where people pay an entry fee and win money. Boggle, Crossword puzzles and on and on.

Poker is a game that is popular. It is unfair to class it as gambling simply because it is more popular or that you can lose a lot at it.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:39 PM
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Scintle's Avatar
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Shark that's the point isn't it? If what you say is true then you are not a skilled poker player.. But you could go to play Bingo and win big time. Does that make you a good player of Bingo? It's purely luck and chance. No skill involved. That's gambling! Not gaming!
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Scintle's Avatar
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Autodafe are you condemning online poker because some people have been consumed by gambling? Is this Puritan attitude logical, reasonable or to the point?

Hundreds of people die in automobile accidents every year, still most people drive and are fine. Should we condemn cars because of this? People go to the hospital and contract stubborn infections and die, still people go to the hospital to have their injuries and illnesses attended to. Should we condemn hospitals because of this?

This puritan sort of logic has been used as justification for many sorts of repressive rules and laws. You can't dance or wear make up or drink alchohol or go to the movies or go swimming in the nude! The point is, we live in a free society. Or we have been told we live in a free society. That leaves you free to make the bad choices as well as the good. YOUR choices don't dictate MY choices.

The fact is that most people who play online poker don't lose their homes or cars or families or lives! Poker is not just gambling. Poker is gaming.
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 05:03 PM
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Alfranco's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 38
Poker more complicated than Chess.....
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 05:10 PM
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autodafe20's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scintle View Post
Autodafe are you condemning online poker because some people have been consumed by gambling? Is this Puritan attitude logical, reasonable or to the point?
My response was to what I quoted, which was about World of Warcraft.
 
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The real issue here is... - Tue Apr 19, 2011, 05:45 PM
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xSay_Pleasex's Avatar
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Sadly whether or not poker is "gaming"/"gambling" is not the real issue (your senator seems confused)...

The real issue here is indictments for money laundering/ bank fruad.

Also, regarding the WoW and online gaming, Blizzard Entertainment (WoW) pays it's taxs to the government, pokerstars does not.

Please note; however, i AM just as pissed off about this whole thing as everyone else! your argument was just off point, IMO.

Here's hopin...

SayPlease
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 07:40 PM
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TARIQ06's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfranco View Post
Poker more complicated than Chess.....


let's see u beat me with trips, i had a straight or you take my queen with your knight which i don't no how in the hell you made that skillful move..chess will run circles around poker..and yes you can gamble at chess as well..but difference are chess is an honrable man's game per many opinion and poker is a sleazeball game, nodoby has to much empathy for poker players say a chess player..so how much you want to say poker is gaming but the majority of our senatosr or congressmans will say it s gambling and its wrong and you shoudl get on your knees and repent...
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 07:47 PM
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shirshot's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 665
gam·ble (gmbl)
v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles
v.intr.
1.
a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
b. To play a game of chance for stakes.
2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
v.tr.
1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.
2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.
n.
1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.
2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.


gam·blenoun /ˈgambəl/
gambles, plural

1.An act of gambling; an enterprise undertaken or attempted with a risk of loss and a chance of profit or success


verb /ˈgambəl/
gambled, past participle; gambled, past tense; gambles, 3rd person singular present; gambling, present participle

1.Play games of chance for money; bet
- she was fond of gambling on cards and horses


2.Bet (a sum of money) in such a way
- he was gambling every penny he had on the spin of a wheel


3.Take risky action in the hope of a desired result
- the British could only gamble that something would turn up




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Web definitions
take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome; "When you buy these stocks you are gambling"


money that is risked for possible monetary gain


play games for money


a risky act or venture
 
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Tue Apr 19, 2011, 09:11 PM
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ursharkfuel's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
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Ok, this quite simple and it comes down to religion and money.

First is religion - I will be the first to admit that I believe in God, but I have no belief in organized religion. Most are full of what comes out of the south end of a north bound bull and I can prove it. This is a made up sin created by ignorant wannabe apostles. The Bible is strikingly quiet when it comes to gambling (or casting lots as it was called then). Important decisions were often made by casting lots and many were against the practice. Roman soldiers gambled for the robes of Jesus as he was being crucified. And there is a story where Jesus cast out the merchants and some say "those casting lots" from the temple. But the fact remains - gambling is never mentioned as a sin in the Bible. There is ample proof that it existed unlike porn for example, yet the Bible deals with the concept of porn which didn't exist then but is strangely silent on lots and gambling - I wonder why..... And did I mention the same yahoos that scream and yell that poker is gambling - which it clearly is NOT, have their weekly BINGO fundraisers right there on the church grounds. It would take me less than 10 seconds to prove bingo is gambling. Now you see why I have little faith in organized religion..... And by the way, I don't gamble, I only play poker. My friend Jerry Yang is a very religious man, but he does not gamble - he plays poker.

Next there is money. Money is the oil that lubricates the gears in our government. Don't be stupid people there is plenty of Vegas and legal card room money behind this effort to kill online poker. And the same religious zealots that profess their faith in God have their hand out collecting the "dirty" gambling proceeds to help stop online poker. What a massive pack of hypocrites! I would not be surprised if the lobbyists for online gaming and the associations that are supposed to support online gaming are discovered to be on the take. Why? Because their efforts have been piss poor at best and incompetent at worst.

To combat this effort 3 things need to be done.

1) Poker needs to be proven once and for all that it is a game of skill and not a real game of chance. Bingo gets an automatic pass on this test and that really needs to be exposed in the Supreme Court if required.

2)The hypocrites beating the drums of faith and virtue need to be exposed for who they are - money whores. The love of money is a sin according to the Bible - ladies and gentlemen on capital hill!!

3)Those providing the money to these elected officials need to be exposed and their support for this bogus law needs to be shown to all that will listen. You will be surprised how fast congress will change when they see Vegas casinos start showing up as their supporters in the media. Only Harry Reid (Senator – Nevada) thinks that is a badge of honor - LOL

I didn't even go into this being an invasion of states rights by the federal government. I live in California where I could setup a poker table on the lawn of the capital and play a cash game with the govenor and my friends and we would only be at risk of being cited for being on the grass because poker is 100% legal in California and many other states.

What are your thoughts?
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 05:51 AM
(#17)
Alfranco's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 38
I think poker is more complicated than chess. In chess the variables are the same at the beginning of each game. In poker they are different each hand! Chess masters have won millions.

Hi Scintle, Have you ever played chess?...In my younger days I played in a chess league and your statement that POKER is more complicated then CHESS has to be a wind-up... the words poker and chess shouldnt even be used in the same sentence.
I would have more chance explaining colour to a blind man than explaining the rules of chess to 90% of poker players
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
(#18)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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ursharkfuel - Nice post, but I do have one problem with it.

How is poker clearly NOT gambling? Do you really think that every time you end the day with less money than you started, you lost it because you had less skill than your opponents? That might be the case, but if you got your money in ahead every time that day then guess what, you lost because of bad luck, not bad skill. How could you lose because of bad luck??? Because CHANCE is a heavy element of the game of poker. Poker is a game of skill AND chance.

The basic idea behind winning poker is that all of the chance(luck) will even out in the long run. After millions of hands your luck should be no better or worse than anyone else's. Therefore, if you are more skilled than your opponents, you will play better than them and over many hands will show a profit. Your mistakes will be smaller than their mistakes, so you show a profit.

That said, on any given day your luck will not be the same as everyone else's. Your luck (variance) will be all over the place from day to day. Some days you could go all-in preflop 4 times with AA and win every time, other days you could do the same thing and lose all 4 times. That is because when you go all-in with AA you DO NOT have a 100% chance of winning at showdown. YOU ARE WAGERING(betting) MONEY THAT YOU WILL WIN THE HAND BECAUSE THE PROBABILITIES ARE IN YOUR FAVOR. You do not know the outcome of the hand before placing your bets. This is gambling, how can you possibly argue otherwise? Yes, after millions of hands luck is virtually a non-factor and skill/rake is everything, BUT on any given hand luck plays a major role along with skill. The smaller your sample size, the large a role luck plays. The important thing is, that luck does play a role in poker.

Take dice for example. If you roll a single die 5 million times, the results will be 99.99% predictable. So if I bet $1 that I will roll a four, am I NOT gambling because in the long run luck doesn't play any role? Of course I am gambling!!!

There is a big difference between poker and other games such as dice or bingo. In poker skill is a factor. In slots/dice/bingo/etc there is absolutely no skill involved. Just because poker is not purely 100% luck doesn't mean you can go around calling it a game of pure skill either.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 10:27 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 02:14 PM
(#19)
Mister Trix's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 2
There are chess tournaments - I think poker is more complicated than chess. In chess the variables are the same at the beginning of each game. In poker they are different each hand! Chess masters have won millions.

There are ALL KINDS of games that have tournaments where people pay an entry fee and win money. Boggle, Crossword puzzles and on and on.
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i understand what you say about poker is a game but when you pay to enter in the hope of winning money back that then becomes gambling???????????? surely

Last edited by Mister Trix; Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 02:16 PM..
 
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swedish supreme court decision - Wed Apr 20, 2011, 03:02 PM
(#20)
jimmypoker6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 30
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here is a link to Swedish supreme court decision regarding skill vs luck:

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/swedis...-ruling-18704/

I have an opinion; Poker is gambling but what part of life isn't a gamble? Having some control of the outcome is key. You cannot lose on purpose shooting craps, playing roulette, or rubbing a scratch off lottery ticket, but you can lose on purpose by folding the nuts. Google Annie Duke's congressional hearing testimony. She makes a very persuasive argument along these lines.
 

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