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Wrong re-raise?

 
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Wrong re-raise? - Wed Apr 20, 2011, 08:06 AM
(#1)
MoI_Je's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
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Am i doing the wrong re-raise pre-flop? Should fold on the flop?


Last edited by MoI_Je; Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 12:50 PM.. Reason: Just trying to put the hand in replayer
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 08:42 AM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I don't think the call on the flop is bad, it would be a leak to fold your Js here. The raise to the bet on the turn is what cooks your goose.

Again, I would add that it is very early in the tournament. Off course you cannot lay down your Jacks, but the bet sizing preflop could be the issue. Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough to say what the best tactic is in this case but some of the evaluators should be along later to advise you on that point.

GL

TC
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 09:25 AM
(#3)
MoI_Je's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
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Ty

MJ
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 09:29 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Am i doing the wrong re-raise pre-flop?

It depends!

What is your read range on this guy's open raise standards from his position?
What are his C-Bet tendencies?
Can he FOLD a top pair hand?
What is YOUR "image" and is the opponent aware of the sorts of hands you would re-raise?

You really need to be able to answer these questions to decide whether your pre-flop re-raise was "correct". If you cannot answer these questions, either because you are a newer player who hasn;t developed the skill to collect this info, or whether you are new to the table and lack the information you need for them, you are forced back upon what you CAN know...

JJ is a decent hand pre-flop, quite often "the best" at a given table, but there will be an over card on the flop about 57% of the time when you do not hold a set.

Your re-raise, if called, will put about 12% of your stack into the pot, and "bloat" the pot to around 360 (if called).

A 360 pot means you will be C-Betting at least another 180 (12% of your stack), so you are probably looking at putting upwards of 24% to 25% of your stack "at risk" in a lot of situations. While this does not necessarily push you past a "committment point", it really is not an amount you want to feel "comfortable" folding away, so any FURTHER betitng action likely will push you past a committment point. There is, afterall, nothing "wrong" with electing to play JJ like you would 77 in many cases.

The sum of all this is: either know the READS to judge if you should raise/re-raise, or know the implications of a raise/re-raise BEFORE you make it...PLAN AHEAD.


Should fold on the flop?

This depends greatly on your reads, but if you lack that info then you fall back on what you DO "know"...

There are 2 overs to your JJ.
There is a possible straight here.
People who raise tend to do so on "broadway cards (or pairs)", so you are either WAY ahead or WAY behind with only 5 outs (at most) to catch up.
You are only 180 (12%) "invested" in this pot.
A single table SNG, especially in the early stages, should be played with more weight on the "survival" end of the balance, instead of the "chip accumulation" end.

So yes, this really is a pretty clear check/fold.
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 10:00 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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I agree with JD.
Since you re-raised preflop, you have to put your opponent on a pair or 2 high cards. With 2 overcards on the flop, I'd immediately put them on hitting one of them or even having a straight made already or two pair... which means you're in big trouble and it's a check or fold to any bet.
If they have a pair only, you have 6 outs (if they don't have a K too) and if they have a straight already, you have 4 outs to only get a chop of the pot.. or if they have 2 pair, you have 2 outs for a set that will only be good if they do not get one of their 4 outs to a full house.

Since you're that far behind, you need to muck after the flop. You've got plenty of chips to find a much better situation than this.
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 10:08 AM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi Guys,

Interested about the fold concept here.

Would it be considered a leak to fold the flop here in a cash game?

TC
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 12:12 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
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TC, with the 2 overcards, personally, I would fold it in a NL cash game. If it was limit, I may hold onto it IF there are not any raises and I can see the last 2 cards cheap. If anyone is raising it, then you know you're behind and need to fold it.
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 12:27 PM
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MoI_Je's Avatar
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Thank you JDean... your view on the subject is correct...
I think I should bread deeply... and think

MJ
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 04:33 PM
(#9)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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The problem with the flat on the flop is that you have to explain what your plan is on the turn. Under no circumstances should you feel comfortable when someone flats your 3bet out of position preflop and you see two overcards on the flop.

If you float this flop the plan has to be to take it away on the turn, the issue is it's going to cost you entirely too much to make a move on this turn when his range smashes into this flop and you are likely making a move into a very strong hand.

Due to this, you can fold here as your 4 Kings aren't enough to make a call and hope for the gut shot.

JJ's heads up on the button isn't a horrible place to flat preflop as well. You under rep your hand and will often win a pot around the size of a pot the Jacks can handle. Plus making stabs at the pot when there are overcards will cost you less then when you play this in a 3bet situation.

JDean is correct, this is a fold as played on the flop. He's a wise and generous man.
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 04:50 PM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Topcat, you seem really concerned about a "leak"... Folding when you should be ahead may be a leak, and calling when you should be behind (because you are attached to your chips) may be a leak. Raising JJ in late position and folding to a reraise may be "leak" as you have turned a primo hand into a bluff.

You can either reraise or call with JJ preflop on the button. If you call you have position so you can keep the pot small when you're unsure of your standing in the hand. If you hit your set you have a very deceptive hand and can make bank. If you reraise you narrow the original raiser's range.

This is a scary scary flop. When he donks it to you I think his range is polarized between air (meaning he thought he could outplay you out of position) and hands that have you totally screwed. I think it's much more weighted to the you're screwed end of his range, and it's an easy fold. So many sets and 2 pairs are crushing you, combo straight/flush draws are flipping, and you have only 3rd pair, so any ace or queen is already way ahead.

If you had a hand like AK, you might have a decision to make as you're ahead of a few more hands, and have the gutshot redraw, and if you had AK with a diamond or two It wouldn't be a bad idea to raise on the flop, but JJ is nothing but a bluff catcher here...and not a very good one.

If you call on the flop you are really turning JJ into a bluff. This board is too likely to have given an opponent a hand he won't fold though, like 2 pair, a set, or a straight, so I don't think a float where you call here to bluff the turn will work often enough.

Last edited by oriholic; Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:54 PM..
 
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Wed Apr 20, 2011, 06:15 PM
(#11)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks guys for all the feedback,

I actually found myself in this situation a few times, raised the flop and took down the pot.

Now I realise this move might work with weaker players, but seasoned players see right through it and take all your money as I learnt to my cost this evening.

I am learning but slowly

TC
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 01:58 AM
(#12)
Jeane&David's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 12
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With 2 over cards on the flop early in a tourney whoever would not fold there jj is a complete moroon.......you dont bet up hill..thats about as smart as pissing in the wind......unless you can read people like daniel or phill hellmuth wait for a better opp....and jj with an a q on the board is not a good opp.......boy i am sure glad i dont ask you people on here for advice hell no wonder there are so many bad players in the pso league listening to moroons like you guys tell this guy that him betting his jj with aq on the flop was a good bet....what a joke lmafo..........
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 02:06 AM
(#13)
Jeane&David's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 12
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Not to mention the str and flush draw that was on the board and the flush draws was reddddddddd and he was holdong both black j's......so yeah keep betting the j's dont want that leak in your game .....what a joke you people are sicking on here...would love to know where u moroons play at live because after i took your money i would try and beat some since into your headsssssssssss...........and as far as the idiot who ask would this be a leak to fold this in a cash....well what do you think moroon.....it would be a leak to contuie to be this hand with the board they was facing ....or maybe you like to look like an idiot and lose your money or the taste of your own piss but i dont like ethier one............
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 02:39 AM
(#14)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeane&David View Post
Not to mention the str and flush draw that was on the board and the flush draws was reddddddddd and he was holdong both black j's......so yeah keep betting the j's dont want that leak in your game .....what a joke you people are sicking on here...would love to know where u moroons play at live because after i took your money i would try and beat some since into your headsssssssssss...........and as far as the idiot who ask would this be a leak to fold this in a cash....well what do you think moroon.....it would be a leak to contuie to be this hand with the board they was facing ....or maybe you like to look like an idiot and lose your money or the taste of your own piss but i dont like ethier one............

so moron where do you play live, i travel and get around
maybe we can see who needs there head beat on
maybe i'll let you get the taste of your own piss AGAIN
HOW DID IT TASTE THE FIRST TIME IDIOT
maybe i'll let you taste mine next time

 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:26 AM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Top:

Calling on the flop to see the turn would generally be the leakier play. Consider...

1) You would have to justify your call by thinking of "implied odds".

To justify the call on a VERY THIN chance to improve, you must not only have an opponent with deep enough chips (in a cash game), but also an opponent with a "blind" enoughj pay style to pay you off significantly if a 4th Straight card comes (to give you either the straight, or a set to beat a better pair/2 pair).

That's pretty rare.

2) Even if you DO "improve", you have no guarentee your improvement is "enough".

While you could make a set to "take the lead" in the hand if your opponent is on Ax, what if he is on AK?

While you could "take the lead" in the hand by hitting a Kiong to make a straight, what if your opponent is on AJ?

........................................

Since ANY further chips of yours that would be put into this pot relies on your expectation of the opponent being able to "pay off" on the VERY THIN draw you are taking, the fact you may improve to "2nd best" or a CHOP negates any reasonableness of risking that thin draw here...

see?
 

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