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Three way all in pot with a loose large stack

 
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Three way all in pot with a loose large stack - Thu Apr 21, 2011, 04:34 AM
(#1)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
So here's a situation:

Freeroll tournament. The blinds are 75/150, I'm on the button with AQh I bet 600 (chipstack 2715) the player in the SB shoves,1710, the cut off calls (chipstack 6769), now its me again. The pot is a total of 4320 with three players in the pot. The large chip stack is loose in calling all ins, so my assumption is, I have him beat. What should I do in this situation? I decided to go all in, (pot 8040) i had the right implied odds 2 to 1, and if i was to lose to player in the SB but win to the large chip stack i would receive 4620 in total, if my calculations are correct. Did I make the right move, and if you have other suggestions as to what I should have done, please give me your opinion on it.

History:

PokerStars Game #61076396650: Tournament #387246819, 10FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/04/20 6:46:58 PT [2011/04/20 9:46:58 ET]
Table '387246819 60' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Blek Dog233 (8801 in chips)
Seat 2: TregSerg (2028 in chips)
Seat 3: Gomel-BSSR (7651 in chips)
Seat 4: Pacheco2405 (6130 in chips)
Seat 5: denn26 (3784 in chips)
Seat 6: tiffywiffy87 (465 in chips)
Seat 7: pingamor320 (8479 in chips)
Seat 8: andrei17731 (3315 in chips)
Seat 9: mogonewild (1710 in chips)
mogonewild: posts small blind 75
Blek Dog233: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andrei17731 [Ah Qh]
TregSerg: folds
tiffywiffy87 said, "u watching both games?"
Gomel-BSSR: folds
Pacheco2405: folds
denn26: calls 150
tiffywiffy87: folds
pingamor320: calls 150
andrei17731: raises 450 to 600
mogonewild: raises 1110 to 1710 and is all-in
Blek Dog233: folds
denn26: folds
pingamor320: calls 1560
andrei17731: raises 1605 to 3315 and is all-in
pingamor320: calls 1605
*** FLOP *** [Kh Js 4c]
*** TURN *** [Kh Js 4c] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [Kh Js 4c 5s] [6h]

Last edited by andrei17731; Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 06:08 AM..
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 04:59 AM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
So UTG limp-shoved? Usually, UTG has aces or kings here. Or he might be pulling a bluff where he plays a hand like 77 or 98 suited as if he has AA or KK if he thinks you're strong enough to read this as an AA limp-shove. Absent any reads, I doubt he's thinking that much. Unless this is a higher level tournament where it's common for a player to make a move based on what he thinks you think he has, I'm putting him on AA or KK here, and getting out with my stack intact. There will be better spots than AQ 3-way against a UTG limp-shove.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 05:59 AM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
...okay, so now it's not UTG but SB? So the cutoff limped, you raised, SB shoved, cutoff called? Or is cutoff really the BB and you opened from the button?

An actual hand history would be very helpful here.

I don't see how you can win 4620 if you lose to SB and beat the big stack... You only have SB covered by about 1000, so if you double that through the big stack, you would have about 2k right?

Also, you don't have implied odds if you're all in. Implied odds refers to extra chips you can win later in the hand. ie. call 100 now to win 800 later would be 8 to 1 implied odds.

Anyhow, now it sounds like your push is warranted. If you raise fold AQ from the button you're turning it into a bluff, and if you just call you're clearly committed, so a value push seems good as BB is committed too....You might have SB beat too. He could definitely be pushing with weaker than AQ.
 
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hand history added - Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:13 AM
(#4)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
I added the hand history, so i hope that gives you more information.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:52 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
A larger stack than you opens limps.

You raise to make it 600 to go.

This raise to 600 off your 3315 start stack puts you 18% into this pot. At that point, you can still FOLD if you feel it is correct to do so.

Immediately behind you, a short stack moves all-in for an amount that is a bit less than double your stack.

The initial limper calls.

Action is back on you.......

The additional 1110 you would have to put into this pot does push you above 50% of your stack in, so you are effectively "committing" yourself for the rest of your stack if you call, right?

Hold on a sec!

The answer to that is "it depends"!

What are the tendencies of the initial limper in dry pot situations?

If you held a group 1 hand here, especially the big pairs of gr 1, I can EASILY see "standing" in this spot with your AQs. You'd want to "squeeze out" the dead money the open limper has added to the pot, you are pretty confident you hold a BETTER hand than the all-in, and your big pair will tend to play BETTER heads up.

But you do not have a big pocket pair here...

Since you do not have a big pocket pair, you rely heavily upon your reads of the bigger stack to determine if the "risk" of moving all in is worth the potential he might call you with something like 77. So long as you feel there is a chance he might call you with hands like KQ/QJ/QT often enough to increase your equity in this spot, then a re-shove is perfectly fine. If not, then you are more likely to find yourself in too many "races" for your entire tourney "life", or find the big stack folding to your re-shove, thus pitting you heads up ONLY agaisnt the short stack (albeit with better return potential).

If you FLAT here, and there is good indications the big stack does know how to play "dry pots", you can leverage the DRAW VALUE of your AQs to potentially AVOID loss of all your chips to small and medium pocket pairs.

Note tho: if the bigger stack has shown ANY indication that he will BET light in dry pot situations (less than top/top at least), then you are FAR better off doing as you did, and "living and dying" on your range read telling you that you have proper equity to "stand" right there.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 11:13 AM
(#6)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
wow, thanks for your opinion, but I what is a dry pot and what does this sentence mean?
"if the bigger stack has shown ANY indication that he will BET light in dry pot situations (less than top/top at least)"

In the end it turned out that the limp- shove had AJo and the big stack had K8o.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 02:04 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,481
(Head Trainer)
With 22 BB's I would seriously consider just moving in pre over 2 weak limpers. You figure to be ahead of their entire limping range and leverage maximum fold equity. When you do get called it will often be a mid pocket pair like 88 and you'll have good equity anyway, but you'll get enough folds that the squeeze should be very profitable here. And you'll have the added equity from times the big stack calls it of with worse.

As played I think getting it in here is fine given the big stack you know calls it off bad and the short stack in the blind can't really price you out anyway.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 04:35 PM
(#8)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
All right that makes more sense. Thanks for posting the hand history. Look how the answer has changed from snap-fold to shove based on the information provided.

I like Dave's answer. Any time you can add 15% to your stack it's definitely something to consider, and AQ suited is a pretty strong hand in its own right if you do get called.

As for dry pot...When the shortstack shoves and gets called by 2 or more players he is entitled to win all the money put into the pot to match his bet. Say there is 750 dead money in the pot, and a shortstack shoves 2000 and gets called by two people. Then there's 750+2000*3=6750 chips he is entitled to win. If you bet now it goes into a sidepot that only the bigger stacks in the hand can win (those who still have chips). If there is no money already in this sidepot it's considered "dry". If instead, shortstack had pushed for 2000 and a big stack reraised it to 5000 and you called, there would 2(5000-2000)=6000 chips in the sidepot that you could win.

In a dry sidepot situation, there isn't really any value in bluffing, because you can't bluff an all-in guy out of the hand. Even betting a marginal holding like 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pair usually doesn't have much value.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 07:41 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
All right that makes more sense. Thanks for posting the hand history. Look how the answer has changed from snap-fold to shove based on the information provided.

I like Dave's answer. Any time you can add 15% to your stack it's definitely something to consider, and AQ suited is a pretty strong hand in its own right if you do get called.

As for dry pot...When the shortstack shoves and gets called by 2 or more players he is entitled to win all the money put into the pot to match his bet. Say there is 750 dead money in the pot, and a shortstack shoves 2000 and gets called by two people. Then there's 750+2000*3=6750 chips he is entitled to win. If you bet now it goes into a sidepot that only the bigger stacks in the hand can win (those who still have chips). If there is no money already in this sidepot it's considered "dry". If instead, shortstack had pushed for 2000 and a big stack reraised it to 5000 and you called, there would 2(5000-2000)=6000 chips in the sidepot that you could win.

In a dry sidepot situation, there isn't really any value in bluffing, because you can't bluff an all-in guy out of the hand. Even betting a marginal holding like 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pair usually doesn't have much value.
Re Dry Pot: See This^

Dry pots can be good for a drawing hand because, as Oriholic states, there is little benefit in bluffing...

As such, if you do not have info on whether your hand is best when compared to the all in behind you, and when you do see a bigger stack call that all in, SOMETIMES with your un-paired hand you are going to give yourself a better chance to "survive" by simply calling into the pot.

If that guy who called the all in with a larger stack than you though is prone to BETTING in dry pot situations, a lot of the benefit of calling is lost to oyu. At that point, if you think he is somewhat loose, you;d be better served SHOVING when it gets back to you (as you did).

See these links:
http://www.blindbetpoker.com/strateg...-side-pot.html
http://www.examiner.com/poker-in-wic...ker-tournament
http://www.pokerplayer.co.uk/poker-s..._strategy.html
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 06:10 AM
(#10)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
Thank you for all your suggestions, they've been most helpful.
 

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