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bubble phase with 44 with 10bb

 
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bubble phase with 44 with 10bb - Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:15 AM
(#1)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2011/04/21 6:11:23 PT [2011/04/21 9:11:23 ET]
Table '417010214 71' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 1toppup (14192 in chips)
Seat 2: pdkibit11 (16018 in chips)
Seat 3: Rowdy4690 (7075 in chips)
Seat 4: tapkost (47776 in chips)
Seat 5: pokerci52 (25040 in chips)
Seat 6: Ferginand470 (29226 in chips)
Seat 7: botliano (8190 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: PS MAXHO (20777 in chips)
Seat 9: andrei17731 (13435 in chips)
1toppup: posts the ante 100
pdkibit11: posts the ante 100
Rowdy4690: posts the ante 100
tapkost: posts the ante 100
pokerci52: posts the ante 100
Ferginand470: posts the ante 100
botliano: posts the ante 100
PS MAXHO: posts the ante 100
andrei17731: posts the ante 100
pokerci52: posts small blind 500
Ferginand470: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andrei17731 [4d 4h]
botliano: folds
PS MAXHO: folds
andrei17731: raises 2000 to 3000
1toppup: folds
pdkibit11: folds
Rowdy4690: folds
tapkost: raises 2000 to 5000
pokerci52: folds
Ferginand470: folds
andrei17731: raises 8335 to 13335 and is all-in
tapkost: calls 8335
*** FLOP *** [6h 3h 3c]
andrei17731 said, "sht"
*** TURN *** [6h 3h 3c] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [6h 3h 3c Ac] [Tc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
andrei17731: shows [4d 4h] (two pair, Fours and Threes)
tapkost: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Queens and Threes)
tapkost collected 29070 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 29070 | Rake 0
Board [6h 3h 3c Ac Tc]
Seat 1: 1toppup folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pdkibit11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Rowdy4690 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: tapkost (button) showed [Qh Qc] and won (29070) with two pair, Queens and Threes
Seat 5: pokerci52 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Ferginand470 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: botliano folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: PS MAXHO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: andrei17731 showed [4d 4h] and lost with two pair, Fours and Threes
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:45 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,858
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If you had enough chips to get ITM, then I'd have have mucked it preflop and waited to get my chips in either after the bubble or with a premium hand.

If you are going to play it, I absolutely would have pushed. You are going to be in a race situation most of the time and want to isolate the pot, with you playing against only 1 other. Unfortunately, you ran into a bigger pair (worst-case scenario).
 
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continue 44 - Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:12 AM
(#3)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
I was already past the bubble and in the money. My stack was around 13000k and the blinds were 500/1000. Also once you're past the bubble how do you approach the game, the sng course doesn't give you any advice on it.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:59 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
13BB, do not open raise then call a re-raise with small pocket pairs.

You can make a case for SOME tables being of a dynamic which says your open to 3BB, then a FOLD is "ok", since you are not likely to change your ability to run truly deeply in this event with 13k vs 10k, but not many. The tables where it is ok though are the ones which are so TIGHT that any re-raise behind is going to have 44 in a world of stink!

I really think you are better served deciding before you put ANY chips into this pot if 44 is the hand you are willing to bust on.

If yes, open shove.

If no, wait for a better spot.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 02:14 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrei17731 View Post
I was already past the bubble and in the money. My stack was around 13000k and the blinds were 500/1000. Also once you're past the bubble how do you approach the game, the sng course doesn't give you any advice on it.
After the bubble, you want to be alot more aggressive accumulating chips (to get to final table or to top 3). With that being the case, instead of the smaller raise, I'd have done what JD suggests and if you are going to play the hand, push first.... don't let anyone else re-raise a smaller bet. If you do that, you've got a better chance of either everyone folding or being isolated against 1 opponent. If someone raises your smaller bet, you have a better chance of them calling your push... as they have more chips already in the pot. In this situation with a small pair, if someone does call, you are either in a race or they are ahead with a larger pair. If you push first, they may fold and you can pick up the blinds/antes, which would increase your stack size by about 20%.

After being ITM, the one reason that you may want to fold it and wait for a better hand, is IF there is a large payout jump coming. If there is, then you want to be sure to get the larger amount.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 02:48 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
I would open shove on 13bb's here. Raise/folding would be a major spew.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 03:01 PM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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And raise-calling sucks too. And not much can fold when you 4-bet shove....so basically you're praying for a flip at that point.

You might be able to go-stop-go though. Call the 3-bet pre and open-shove the flop. You can give bad odds to any high card hands that didn't hit (AK, AQ, etc.) Of course, if the 3-better has a pair you're doomed, but once you entered the pot for a raise, you were pretty much committed.

I'm with Dave though--if I enter this pot it's with a shove.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 07:32 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I would open shove on 13bb's here. Raise/folding would be a major spew.
I tend to agree...

About the ONLY dynamic I can think of where raising a lesser amount than your whole stack is "ok" would be one where everyone would fold EVERY un-paired hand to that raise.

On that dynamic though, ANY re-raise is going to have you "sunk"...

So if you do not have enough "faith" in 44 to open shove form your position, wait for a better spot.
 
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Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:43 PM
(#9)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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Problem is .. you know preflop it's shove or fold, and if you shove you're flipping on the bubble. IF that is the only thing you pull from all that everyone has said then burn this into your brain:

"Is this a good time to flip?"

Remind yourself to pause and ask yourself this question.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 01:39 AM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
About the ONLY dynamic I can think of where raising a lesser amount than your whole stack is "ok" would be one where everyone would fold EVERY un-paired hand to that raise
This dynamic doesn't exist though, so I'm not sure I get your point. For instance, no one is folding AK here. Most players will shove over you with more unpaired hands than just AK too. Raise/folding on this short a stack is a spew in all but extreme circumstances.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 01:41 AM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by archide View Post
Problem is .. you know preflop it's shove or fold, and if you shove and get called you're flipping on the bubble.
FYP
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 04:22 AM
(#12)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
13 BBs should give you some pretty solid fold equity.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 06:14 AM
(#13)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
So with all these opinions, I'm understanding that there isn't one concrete correct answer on how to play this hand. Basically it comes down to shoving or folding preflop, and that's entirely up to me? What does the book recommend in this situation?
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 06:20 AM
(#14)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
So based on all these suggestions my understanding is that, I should either shove or fold? There's no one concrete correct answer for this situation? What does the book recommend doing?
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 12:15 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
This dynamic doesn't exist though, so I'm not sure I get your point. For instance, no one is folding AK here. Most players will shove over you with more unpaired hands than just AK too. Raise/folding on this short a stack is a spew in all but extreme circumstances.
3 letters...

P
S
O

Could also exist in semi near bubble situations of Satties.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 01:32 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
3 letters...

P
S
O

Could also exist in semi near bubble situations of Satties.
Sorry to pick a bone with you on this one JD, but you weren't talking about PSO bubble or satellite bubble, you were talking about running deep so it was specifically not those unique scenarios. Even in a critical bubble juncture like PSO or Satellite, I don't like raise/folding. If we're actually on a critical bubble like those, I would fold a small pair. In an event where we're playing to win as the primary goal and not crossing the bubble, I like shoving. I don't think raise/folding serves our purpose in either scenario personally, but I'm willing to entertain the idea if you can drill it down deeper in a way that makes sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
You can make a case for SOME tables being of a dynamic which says your open to 3BB, then a FOLD is "ok", since you are not likely to change your ability to run truly deeply in this event with 13k vs 10k.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 02:07 PM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrei17731 View Post
What does the book recommend doing?
There is no cookbook recipe. There's a reason one of the more common phrases in these tighter spots is "it depends". There's really a number of factors involved.

Learning the "by the book" stuff is an important part of your poker development imo, but bear in mind that players who play a "by the book" strategy have very limited success in this game. It's a good foundation upon which to build your poker house, but it's just that, not the actual dwelling.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:00 PM
(#18)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
BronzeStar
Thanks for the fix boss. Appreciated.
 
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conclusion - Sat Apr 23, 2011, 07:03 PM
(#19)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
So as far as I understand, the best approach in playing this hand is you decide right from the start whether you want to risk ending it here or not. You don't want to raise and risk the chance of getting reraised, which would put me to a tough decision of either folding or shoving, when you've already invested 25% of your chip stack (3000 of 13000 is about 25%, right?), you don't really wanna fold cause you invested 25%. You can't call either do to the fact that it will be a 40 % investment and therefore you're committed indifferenty on the flop so it's better to shove now, but because the opponent had re-raised it's very likely that he will call and that brings us back to a decision we should have made prior raising, that is, whether or not you want to risk ending it here, with a coin flip at best and an over pair ( 4 to 1 underdog) at worst. Therefore the right action would be to shove and not raise. Would this be the correct thinking? Also what percentage would you have to invest on the preflop to be committed?

But what if the intent of this raise was a semi- bluff then perhaps applying small ball here would be perfect. You raise 2.5 times the small blind, such as 2500 or 2225, if we got reraised, this is only a 20% or 16% investment and therefore you're warrant to fold. Would do you think about this approach?

Last edited by andrei17731; Sat Apr 23, 2011 at 09:12 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 08:00 PM
(#20)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
BronzeStar
The problem is what is the point of your raise?

Are you looking to collect blinds? (Then this is fine but in LP or with very tight players in LP)

Are you looking to get called? (Kinda sucky because 4s don't improve too much and to be profitable you're going to have to take a stab at a lot of flops you don't like)

You can do this when you are 50BBs deep, this is not the time.
 

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