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deep in MTT range Qu. 5/150; 540 paid 3bet call is 25% of stack

 
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deep in MTT range Qu. 5/150; 540 paid 3bet call is 25% of stack - Fri Apr 22, 2011, 08:32 PM
(#1)
zlizard's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 147
Question on pre-flop range requirements for what percentages of your stack deep in MTT.

Background

5,000 runner game, 541 bubble 150 remaining field.
Your rank is 5th with 120bb / M of 45; second round, new table.

Question is open, so not necessary read dependent.

The play is this:

You post the SB
folded round to cut-off -2, thinks for 3 seconds and shoves c9bb all-in
cut-off insta-ships 32bb all-in
folded to you, the Big Blind has 15bb
action on you


current pot is 43bb; if called 74bb and u drop to 85bb if you lose.
call is c 25% of your stack, pot is c. 33% of your stack.
you're getting c. 1.4:1 on the pot


chip distribution:
you 120bb
2* c. 30bb
3* c. 15bb
3* sub 10bb


pay structure 28~36th is double current pay, flat increments to that stage; pay steps accelerate post 13th place.

So what ranges are you insta-folding and what qualifies an insta-call here?
Does the resulting pot, if lost, to your new stack ratio affect your decision greatly; and, how much does that narrow/widen your range.

What other relevant info have I left out for your thought processes?
z
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 08:44 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Do you have a hand history for this scenario? It would help the evaluators out if you could post that.

And, in a situation like this, it's hard to give you a cut-and-dry you-should-do-this-always-in-this-spot sort of answer, because reads on how your opponents have been playing are so important. They improve the quality of your decisions so much, that without those reads, I don't think that there's a lot of help people can give you out of game. Reads kind of make up 80% of the contributing information you need to develop an intelligent strategy (I just picked an arbitrary number there). If you have anything on the two players involved, it would help, too.

You'd need a strong hand though. And although there is an advantage that being a big stack can give you, I don't think that being a big stack here should necessarily widen or narrow your range. You should just be looking to make a play that will win you chips in the long run.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Apr 22, 2011 at 08:47 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 08:51 PM
(#3)
zlizard's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 147
sorry, yes - do have the HH but didn't want current holding to influence the discussion. wrong thread/ should have posted in a strat thread? :/

sorry - should I post but delete my holding, post the full hh, post up to the pre-flop decision etc.

No real reads as second cycle; shorty but smells desperate and cut-off gives an initial impression of sketchy player but again, 2 cycles and mainly based on time to call pre-flop and quick folds on flop a few times previous.

Last edited by zlizard; Fri Apr 22, 2011 at 08:59 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:03 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The hand analysis forum is the correct place. If you don't want to show something, you can delete it from the hand history.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:13 PM
(#5)
zlizard's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 147
: -embarrassed smily- :

Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1250/t2500 Blinds + t310 - 9 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): t295250 M = 45.15
BB: t39991 M = 6.11
UTG: t36001 M = 5.50
UTG+1: t71201 M = 10.89
UTG+2: t15415 M = 2.36
MP1: t21500 M = 3.29
MP2: t42490 M = 6.50
CO: t80262 M = 12.27
BTN: t6115 M = 0.94

Pre Flop: (t6540) Hero is SB with K K
Hero says "ul", 3 folds, MP1 raises to t21190 all in, 1 fold, CO raises to t79952 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t78702, 1 fold

Flop: (t186384) T 5 6 (3 players - 2 are all in)
Hero says "nh"

Turn: (t186384) 5 (3 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t186384) 3 (3 players - 2 are all in)



Just think that there are some lines where my return is marginal compared to risk of creating a threatening stack...better spots can be had for post-flop exploitation

Last edited by zlizard; Fri Apr 22, 2011 at 09:16 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:14 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I'm going to try not to go too far with this, since I'm not an evaluator. But if you read the short stack as desperate and they had 9BB, then you can generally expand your calling range significantly. That's because with that stack, a desperate player will shove with any two cards. In my experience, people don't really start shoving any reasonable hand until they drop closer to 5BB, so I tend to call that sort of all-in shove pretty tight, but if you trusted your read that they were desperate and willing to shove wide, then you could call pretty wide.

The fact that the cutoff shipped typically means that you need to tighten back up. People generally don't isolate all-in short stacks with weak hands. An insta-ship just means that they knew immediately that they wanted to go with their hand. I think that from a sketchy player, that sort of play is also typically a sign of strength.

Really, you don't want to double up anyone here, and the cutoff probably had a strong hand, based on the info you've given. I'd say that you should fold any hand that isn't a monster to begin with. That's just my opinion, though.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Apr 22, 2011 at 09:34 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:22 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, it's definitely a good call with KK. The short stack certainly had a hand there, so they might not have been as desperate as you thought. But it looks like you probably ran into the bottom of the cutoff's range. AQ is typically the weakest hand I'll put a player on in that spot, without a read. Since beating the cutoff is the most important factor in this hand (since beating the cutoff, but losing to the short stack still gives you a very nice chip-up), if you're ahead of the cutoff's range, you should probably call.

If you have Pokerstove installed to your computer, you can have fun with different hands, exploring what range of hands you'd need to have good equity against your opponents' ranges in spots like this. It's worth installing, especially since it's free.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:38 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
It's definitely a call with KK.

The important range is the guy who's got the bigger stack. The smaller stack could be shoving fairly wide, and the other guys perception of how wide that might be will influence his isolation range for sure, but even against a fairly tight isolation range KK is still way ahead. I mean you're way ahead of anything except specifically AA, so unless the guy were isloating with specifically KK/AA, you're good. QQ-AA would be 50/50 against you, anything wider you're ahead and even a tight isolater is wider than just QQ+, even the tightest of isolaters are reshoving JJ and AK for instance vs. this short stack all in.

Panicky, don't hold back just because you're not an official evaluator, everyone's evaluation is valuable here.

Dave
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:49 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I like the play with KK. The small stack's range is really wide and if they are going to play a hand, they should be pushing, especially with a small pair.
The second person was hoping for a race with the small stack... which they did have, and pushed to try and isolate against only the small stack person that pushed first. They forgot about the fact that someone after them may have had a better hand.

Even if the smaller stack has AA, you will most often win the sidepot, which is double the main pot and is a positive result for your chip stack. The only way you can get into trouble with this is if the 2nd person has AA.... even if they had this, you're only risking about 25% of your stack to get 185k chips (over 50% addition to your current stack).

Easy call with KK in my eyes and I can't get my chips into the pot fast enough with a cat 1 hand if I'm in that situation.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:53 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Panicky, don't hold back just because you're not an official evaluator, everyone's evaluation is valuable here.
I totally agree. Everyone can learn from ANYONE. Please keep it up.
 
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Fri Apr 22, 2011, 10:14 PM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I need to read this forum more, anyway. I might as well post more than just my own hands.
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 04:29 AM
(#12)
zlizard's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 147
Cheers for the feedback; and +1 Panicky about voicing your opinion - even if you were wrong / challenged it adds to the discussion and everyone's knowledge/understanding.

In a sense, this is why I was reticent to post the actual hand - as although I struggled with the call it is an obvious call.

There must be some argument however for specific ranges that ordinarily one would 2.5~3.5x it pre-flop UTG but yet fold in the situation described.I'm thinking the considerations are:

you have the advantage of being able to play post-flop, both in chips and ability

whilst the small stacks range is irrelevant, and the Cut-Off only needs, and will shove any ace, depending on style... KK vs A* ~ 68%, which reduces to 1.46 : 1 whereas pot is 1.36 : 1 and that's kinda thin even when extrapolating an exact hand

cash vs MTT. cash i snap call whereas the bump in pay deeper in the game, and I'm not read up on ICM, but the OP's stack predicates the facility to get deeper by picking better spots. Rightly, or wrongly (and it might be a style / state of mind thing) but I divorce myself from "sexy" seemingly high equity pre-flop battles in favour of choosing spots with more post-flop play / certainty.

JW are you sure on the 50% stack bump for 185k you're giving there? I read it as 100k bump on a 300k stack so +33%.

The table seemed fairly stable at the time, albeit on a 2 cycle observation. It was not yet a turbo-style loose range shove-fest from a lot of sub 10bb stacks, which must alter the considerations...

Anyway, enjoying the discussion.
z

PS. good shout on PokerStove but on a Mac so meh, however, Mac users can get a copy of ProPokerTools simulator for Mac which runs natively

Last edited by zlizard; Sat Apr 23, 2011 at 04:31 AM..
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 04:35 AM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlizard View Post
I'm not read up on ICM
I don't think ICM considerations really come into play until the final table, when the jumps are massive and take place with every elimination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zlizard View Post
I divorce myself from "sexy"
Never divorce yourself from sexy.
 

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