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Flopping a set with Pocket 3's

 
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Flopping a set with Pocket 3's - Sat Apr 23, 2011, 06:59 PM
(#1)
Chakraveuh's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
Just playing a $1.10 tourney, and this is how the hand played out.
I just got moved to this table and it was my second hand there, so didn't really have any reads.
Now, did I play this hand properly or slow played it too much?



PokerStars Game #61224386648: Tournament #417010746, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (40/80) - 2011/04/23 18:52:46 ET
Table '417010746 243' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Chakraveuh (5415 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: peetclean (1020 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: marinas1989 (2980 in chips)
Seat 4: Zodiac9986 (3000 in chips)
Seat 5: OV13LO (3000 in chips)
Seat 6: nik@s870 (11570 in chips)
Seat 7: abutler61 (3000 in chips)
Seat 8: drecsler (3000 in chips)
Seat 9: supermarc8 (3000 in chips)
marinas1989: posts small blind 40
Zodiac9986: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chakraveuh [3c 3s]
OV13LO: folds
nik@s870: calls 80
Chakraveuh has returned
abutler61: folds
drecsler: folds
supermarc8: calls 80
Chakraveuh: calls 80
peetclean: folds
marinas1989: calls 40
Zodiac9986: checks
*** FLOP *** [8d 5h 3h]
marinas1989: checks
Zodiac9986: checks
nik@s870: bets 160
supermarc8: calls 160
Chakraveuh: calls 160
marinas1989: folds
Zodiac9986: folds
*** TURN *** [8d 5h 3h] [As]
nik@s870: bets 240
supermarc8: calls 240
Chakraveuh: calls 240
*** RIVER *** [8d 5h 3h As] [7c]
nik@s870: checks
supermarc8: bets 400
Chakraveuh: raises 600 to 1000
nik@s870: folds
supermarc8: raises 920 to 1920
Chakraveuh: calls 920
*** SHOW DOWN ***
supermarc8: shows [9c 6d] (a straight, Five to Nine)
Chakraveuh: mucks hand
supermarc8 collected 5440 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5440 | Rake 0
Board [8d 5h 3h As 7c]
Seat 1: Chakraveuh mucked [3c 3s]
Seat 2: peetclean (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: marinas1989 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Zodiac9986 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: OV13LO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: nik@s870 folded on the River
Seat 7: abutler61 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: drecsler folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: supermarc8 showed [9c 6d] and won (5440) with a straight, Five to Nine


I didn't re-raise all in at the end because of his bet size indicating to me he could have had a possible higher straight, and the thought of 9-6 crossed my mind, so decided to leave it at that.

Thanks for your feedback, it's much appreciated.

Last edited by Chakraveuh; Sat Apr 23, 2011 at 07:03 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 07:27 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I like the preflop limp. 33 doesn't play too well post-flop, especially in $1 games where players can be really stationy, so it'd be a multi-way pot more often than not. And you easily have implied odds to limp here, especially since players in $1 will very often stack off to a flopped set. Very nice preflop setmine.

On the flop, you should consider betting or raising, regardless of the action, because the board is coordinated. You don't have to raise, but since the board is drawy and a heart peeling off on the turn would be bad, you're taking a risk by just calling. If you raised the flop, both guys might have gone away, but they both showed interest in sticking around, so maybe not. I think raising the flop would have been best.

On the turn, I think you definitely need to charge. This is for two reasons:

First, the board got a little more drawy. 24 now makes a straight, and any single 2 or 4 is drawing to one. It's unlikely that the other two players have 24 exactly right now, but both of their ranges are wide, since they both limped preflop. It's almost guaranteed that at least one of them is on a draw to a better hand than yours right now.

The second reason you need to raise the turn is to build the pot. If your set is good, which it will be a lot of the time here, you want to win a big pot, not a small one. To do that, you need to get the ball rolling as early in the hand as you can manage. As you saw on the river, after you raised to 1,000 chips, the guy had the opportunity to just flat call, lose, and still have chips. Had you raised the turn, you could have gotten his whole stack in on the river.

On the river, it would probably have just been best to call the guy's value bet. Even bad opponents will show up with better hands than you on this board. You ended up paying him off here, which is the opposite of what you want to do when you setmine.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Apr 23, 2011 at 07:31 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 07:38 PM
(#3)
Chakraveuh's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
Thanks, I realized that betting the turn would have probably been best as it was a decently draw-heavy board and two players were putting small bets making it likely they had something to draw with. Appreciate the feedback.
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 07:56 PM
(#4)
archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
BronzeStar
Like Panicky said, coordinated board you need to raise this flop. There are a lot of Ax of hearts hands that will be willing to get it in on this turn and I'm raising big here if not shoving this turn.

Once the river hits though, you're only getting it in vs 2 pair or bigger sets, straights. Not enough equity vs hands which want to get it in to pound away like you did. Expect to get on average one more bet from all the hands you beat.

So basically as the draws were there you flatted so they could see another card, when the draws got there you went haywire.

Reverse that - collect money.

Last edited by archide; Sat Apr 23, 2011 at 09:41 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 23, 2011, 08:11 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by archide View Post
So basically as the draws were there you flatted so they could see another card, when the draws go there you went haywire.

Reverse that - collect money.
lol, I like this. Very succinct.
 
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Sun Apr 24, 2011, 02:55 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Preflop: nothing to talk about.

Flop: I dont mind the flat call,since it does disguise your hand.
Most people will raise the flop and then when the flush hits on the turn the villian can rep it.
Not a big deal if you did raise the flop since that is the standard play.
But lets take a different line as to get more value.
Flat the flop and if the turn does not complete the flush you can raise it up and will have one more street of value.

Turn:
Is perfect.If the villians are not on a flush draw and have a AK type hand you are getting paid off.
You raise it up..720 in the pot and is now worth taking it down now or making a draw pay out the ass for chasing.Straight draws are not connecting,flush draws have not hit and if they are both on a flush draw they have even less outs.Something I look at when I am on a draw is what the other players are flatting with.It helps me fold turns more often with my draw even if it is AK.

River:
The way I played it you should be allin or taken it down by now.

Slowplay is ok to extent.I tend to only slowplay the flop in multi way pots after that I get aggressive.If it was Heads up I dont mind slowplaying one of those minbet,minbet,river spew players.
 
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Sun Apr 24, 2011, 03:07 PM
(#7)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Personally, i would of raised on both the flop and river, for 2 reasons 1) build the pot 2) there is a straight draw, and flush draw, so betting would stand a chance of making them think twice, althouth given how loose they appear to be, maybe keep it within a safe amount.
 
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Sun Apr 24, 2011, 05:00 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Slowplay is ok to extent.I tend to only slowplay the flop in multi way pots after that I get aggressive.If it was Heads up I dont mind slowplaying one of those minbet,minbet,river spew players.
Not to disagree with this strategy (I think it's good), but I don't think that it's a good enough reason to slowplay in this situation. The reason is, the villain who led out bet only 40% of the pot and there was a caller. So you're essentially letting both villains take 4.5-to-1 pot odds on the flop, which is what they'd both need to hit a draw. I think flatting the flop is bad because if the villains draw out on you, it's your fault, because you gave not just one, but two villains expressed odds to draw to their flushes/straights. If the open raise on the flop had been 80% of the pot, your call would have exacerbated the bad odds that both villains were getting. In this case, the hero was exacerbating their own mistake because there were multiple villains in the pot. That's how I see things, at least.
 
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Sun Apr 24, 2011, 05:49 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
So you bet the flop and now they both call and they check check to you on the turn.
You are going to end up with the same amount of chips either way.
Recognizing players on draw hands should be exploited to the end.
I dont want to chase them out of the hand,but slowly ease them in to bluffing the river when they miss.Look back at the hands people show up with on the river when you have called there monster bet!Tends to be missed draws,they dont like to show down those hands and tend to bet more than not.

So raising the flop will just have them calling along and now on the turn they are checking to you.
Or they bet but they are betting less than they would if you just called.

Pros for calling flop:
-they think you are on a draw as well and they have the nut flush draw and bet thinking you will fold.
-they are a player that gets more aggressive as the streets go on,tend not to have a made hand.
-other villian in the hand puts you on a draw and raises as well,you complety miss this if you raise flop.
-they like to be in control of a hand but shutdown as soon as some one raises them.

Cons:
-You have a hard time folding when they hit the flush draw
-They are one of those easily aroused players that shoves when facing any playback
-they suck out
-you miss the chance of them getting it allin on the flop when you raise.


Have to go workout,so my points are alittle grey.But I think it comes down to are you able to fold trips or a premium hand to a board that hits your villians range and how well you read the board and post flop play.
Remember that balancing is very important for when the fish are almost gone and you are facing stronger players.They will look back at how you have played a hand.
Same reason I check/call down the nuts in slow structured tourneys,it makes them think twice before they play back at me.
 
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Sun Apr 24, 2011, 07:09 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
First off, I agree that there's an argument for calling the flop.

Given that both villains show interest on this flop, I think raising is at least a little better than calling. Given that this is a $1 game, where villains will rarely understand when they should fold a draw, I think that raising is way better than calling. I wouldn't be shocked if pair + backdoor straight draws jam the pot over top of the hero here. At the very least, overpairs, overcards + flush draw, and pair + flush draw are probably never going away. Stationy players might hang around with worse.

I understand the desire to outplay opponents on later streets. First off, that's where most of the profit is. Since equity for the worst hand goes down on the turn, a skilled player has much greater EV on that street, and on the river, where they're either 100% right, or 100% wrong, a correct play there results in a pure profit. But this is a much more dangerous, murky situation, and it's a micro where people generally over-commit, so outplaying people on the flop is good enough. I think that there's an excellent argument for raising the flop, although I don't hate calling.
 
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Mon Apr 25, 2011, 03:22 PM
(#11)
PATTI61's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 2
WhiteStar
played them to slow
 
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Mon Apr 25, 2011, 03:24 PM
(#12)
PATTI61's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 2
WhiteStar
played to slow,all in after turn for me
 
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Mon Apr 25, 2011, 03:37 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Similiar hand,kind of illustrates what I am talking about.
I play the way I mentioned accept I checked River since a straight is now possible.

PokerStars Game #61301220048: Tournament #379718658, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2011/04/25 12:31:57 PT [2011/04/25 15:31:57 ET]
Table '379718658 18' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dazmills (6470 in chips)
Seat 2: Tollbar (3260 in chips)
Seat 3: IseeCookies (1335 in chips)
Seat 4: pebbles249 (1357 in chips)
Seat 5: Berdiyev M (1255 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: Letsplay233 (4040 in chips)
Seat 7: bakreni12 (8426 in chips)
Seat 8: geocatcon (1143 in chips)
Tollbar: posts small blind 50
IseeCookies: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [3d 3s]
pebbles249: calls 100
Berdiyev M: folds
Letsplay233: calls 100
bakreni12: folds
Sesshoumar33 is connected
geocatcon: calls 100
dazmills: calls 100
Tollbar: calls 50
IseeCookies: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d Kc 3c]
Tollbar: checks
IseeCookies: checks
pebbles249: bets 200
Letsplay233: folds
geocatcon: folds
dazmills: folds
Tollbar: folds
IseeCookies: calls 200
*** TURN *** [5d Kc 3c] [6h]
IseeCookies: checks
pebbles249: bets 200
IseeCookies: raises 400 to 600
pebbles249: calls 400
*** RIVER *** [5d Kc 3c 6h] [2d]
IseeCookies: checks
pebbles249: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IseeCookies: shows [3d 3s] (three of a kind, Threes)
pebbles249: mucks hand
IseeCookies collected 2200 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2200 | Rake 0
Board [5d Kc 3c 6h 2d]
Seat 1: dazmills (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Tollbar (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: IseeCookies (big blind) showed [3d 3s] and won (2200) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 4: pebbles249 mucked [Kh Jh]
Seat 5: Berdiyev M folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Letsplay233 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: bakreni12 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: geocatcon folded on the Flop
 
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Mon Apr 25, 2011, 03:47 PM
(#14)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This case is a little bit different, since a bet and a call suggests a greater likelihood of someone calling a flop raise than a single flop lead-out. Also, with deeper stacks, there's more room to be stubborn. And in this spot, a raise would have either been a lead-out of your own, or a check-raise, so a check/call looks good here. I do see your point though. This tactic could work in either case.

I'm curious about the turn raise, though. It's 60% of what you have behind. I can see in a Skill League game why you might want to reserve something, but I'd think that if the guy's calling 600, he's calling 1000 and change.
 
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Mon Apr 25, 2011, 04:00 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
I used to think hey if they call 600 they will call 1000 and more than not I find they fold.
Bet sizing is so hard to guage sometimes.I liked the 600 because it doesnt look like I thought about it much.He already bet 200 so calling 600 is not that hard for him to call.I think 1000 especially when you look at what he had is going to get a fold.

I did plan to get it allin on the river but thought twice about it and checked it because he could show up with all kinds of garbage and some how connect if he had a four of clubs.
 

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