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value bet

 
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value bet - Fri Apr 29, 2011, 04:25 PM
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shankpotomus's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 26
WhiteStar
80k play money 3 table sit n go, reduced to two tables, the button is a call station and I am 4th place. the flop comes and i decide to value bet. I believe im executing the value bet extremely well. what i don't like is my stack at risk for top pair medium kicker. what i want to know is how well i understand value betting and how to use it.


 
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little more info - Fri Apr 29, 2011, 05:30 PM
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shankpotomus's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 26
WhiteStar
you will never hear me complain about donkeys and maniacs but, call stations really bug me. I have chosen the value bet to be my hammer of justice in dealing with these guys. any additional advice for call stations would be appreciated.

Last edited by shankpotomus; Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 06:44 PM.. Reason: some views i decided should be posted else where
 
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Sat Apr 30, 2011, 01:23 AM
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archide's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 229
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Calling stations are fantastic:

1. Recognize them by an above average VPIP and a good spread between VPIP and PFR.
2. Don't bluff calling stations.
3. Do not build large pots with top pair vs calling stations.
4. Do not bluff calling stations.
5. Fold when they raise the turn.
6. Do not bluff calling stations.
7. Check behind on rivers with marginal hands.
8. Do not bluff calling stations.

When you do bluff a calling station and he calls you, please remember we all do it, and like the rest of us please remember not to blame them. Roll your eyes at yourself and call yourself the donk.

p.s. DON'T BLUFF THE STATIONS
 
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Sat Apr 30, 2011, 01:32 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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I agree with Arch. When you're up against a calling station, do the following........

when you get the top hand, bet it... as you did... and continue to bet it (they'll call anything).

What you do NOT want to do is to try and bluff one. Save your chips until you get a made hand, then let them double you.
 
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Sat Apr 30, 2011, 01:44 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankpotomus View Post
you will never hear me complain about donkeys and maniacs but, call stations really bug me. I have chosen the value bet to be my hammer of justice in dealing with these guys. any additional advice for call stations would be appreciated.
First: Play money poker tends to NOT mirror "real" poker for the reason that there is nothing "at risk", and nothing to gain; people tend to NOT put a whole lot of thought into their decisions.

You should be VERY careful in using the play tables to guage your bet sizing decisions, mainly because of these factors.

Now...

Value betting is done only when you believe you have the best hand.

A well sized value bet tends to be one which DENIES odds for likely draws which could beat your hand, but INVITES calls from those hands.

This implies you are sizing your bet to force an opponent to make a "mistake" in application of Sklansky's "Fundemental Theorem of Poker".

See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...eorem_of_poker

Against severe calling stations, you can tend to bet a little bit more "for value" on less threatening draw boards or with better than 1 pair hands, simply because they will tend to call these bets, but there is little reason on 30+ BB stacks to bet more than about 2/3rds the pot to a pot bet on the flop in most circumstances; doing so tends to "bloat" the pot, and makes your potential LOSS should an opponent draw out on you more severe.

Now...

When you got to see the flop from the BB "for free", and you flopped top pair/Ten Kicker, you bet more than 2 times the pot. That bet size will usually result in ONLY hands better than your top pair/weak kicker calling (or raising), and will worse hands like top pair/weaker kicker or 2nd pairs and flush draws, folding (if opponents are "aware"). This means your bet will tend to "direct" your opponent(s) into doing EXACTLY what they would do if all the cards were "known"...see?

According to Sklansky, this COSTS you "value".


To top off things, your turn and river bets put a HUGE portion of your stack into the pot. Can you really put this much in, then FOLD?

It is said the "biggest" mistake in poker is not necessarily calling a bet when you might be behind, but rather putting a large portion of you stack, then FOLDING; you should have either committed earlier, when you were ahead, or folded earlier before having a huge part of your stack in, see?


What do you do here if the opponent shoves all in over your bet on the turn? Do you "like" folding away that much of your stack (~40% to 50%)? Do you "like" your chances of still being ahead with top pair/Ten kicker when he may have hit that 8?

Bet sizing is a VERY wide subject, and is not one whose intricacies can be fully addressed in this forum. I would strongly suggest you go to the library of PSO and look up the live lessons by The Langolier on bet sizing, committment decisions, and other things related to sizing your bets and managing your stack.

The only reason your bet sizing "worked" here is, I am sure, in a play money situation your opponent had no CARE for the fact he was chasing a flush draw for a big amount of chips, thus you got "full value".

Hope it helps.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Apr 30, 2011 at 02:12 AM..
 

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