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QQ 4 bet .

 
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QQ 4 bet . - Tue May 03, 2011, 03:31 PM
(#1)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
I think I made the correct decision. I figured that if could double now at this stage of the tournament, this would give me a huge advantage later on. What r your suggestions?


PokerStars Game #61639189367: Tournament #419010492, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2011/05/03 12:26:23 PT [2011/05/03 15:26:23 ET]
Table '419010492 376' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: G_Loc88 (10180 in chips)
Seat 2: ihaveguts (6100 in chips)
Seat 3: reevo777 (4605 in chips)
Seat 4: sanya630827 (4155 in chips)
Seat 5: lince10 (2725 in chips)
Seat 6: raisin rohan (4880 in chips)
Seat 7: valera1976 (4085 in chips)
Seat 8: andrei17731 (5035 in chips)
Seat 9: Scrach face (3250 in chips)
G_Loc88: posts the ante 15
ihaveguts: posts the ante 15
reevo777: posts the ante 15
sanya630827: posts the ante 15
lince10: posts the ante 15
raisin rohan: posts the ante 15
valera1976: posts the ante 15
andrei17731: posts the ante 15
Scrach face: posts the ante 15
andrei17731: posts small blind 60
Scrach face: posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andrei17731 [Qd Qs]
G_Loc88: folds
ihaveguts: folds
reevo777: raises 120 to 240
sanya630827: folds
lince10: folds
raisin rohan: folds
valera1976: raises 240 to 480
andrei17731: raises 4540 to 5020 and is all-in
Scrach face: folds
reevo777: folds
valera1976: calls 3590 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (950) returned to andrei17731
*** FLOP *** [Kc 6d 5d]
*** TURN *** [Kc 6d 5d] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Kc 6d 5d 3c] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 06:12 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
If it was me, instead of re-raising all-in, I'd have done this.....

I'd have just called their raise. You need to be worried about AA, KK or Ax/ Kx pairing.
By just calling their raise, it gives you the opportunity to fold and still have plenty of chips if an A or a K hits the board. If I saw 3 unsuited unders on the flop, then I'm making a good size bet on the flop. If I see overs, then you would need to be ready to fold the QQ.

I agree with you that a double at this stage would set you up well for later on, but you don't want to risk too much doing it... without knowing you have the best hand.
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 08:15 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Reads on villain?
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 08:42 PM
(#4)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Reads on villain?
He was sitting next to the hero.
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 08:56 PM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi Andrei,

I notice that you are a frequent poster in Hand Analysis and that you are playing quite high buy in games. Are these sitngos or tourneys? There is an important distinction here I feel and you need to post this information so that the evaluators can make an informed analysis.

This is not meant to be rude but do you not think you are burning money at the moment? I am just saying this because I found myself in a similar position to your own while playing cash games at reasonably high levels and found myself, like you, wondering why I was not winning.

Maybe it is a good time to pull the reins in and build your game from scratch. if you really enjoy poker that will not be a trial but a voyage of self discovery that will make a lot of your posts and questions unnecessary.

GL at the tables with whatever you decide,


TC
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 09:35 PM
(#6)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
, Well, I have a good basic understanding of how to play the tournaments and sng's, I've gone through the sng, MTT course, read a lot online and have taken the quiz and started playing at micro stakes and did pretty good, so I decided to move up, I'm only playing at a max of $11 buy in which isn't that much money to me considering my bank roll and I'm actually not losing money, I'm up a decent amount and finishing in the top 5, been number one twice. My ROI is 8.99. So I think I have a decent grasp. and you're totally right it is better to start from scratch, which i did. The reason I'm asking so many question is, the way I'm playing is what your pokerschool recommends and its working out well, but I would just like to expand my knowledge and what other ways to approach a hand, and what best way to do that, then by asking questions. The hands that I lose and I know it was a mistake I don't post them, this hand was of some interest because it's never happened to me before and I've never 4 bet. The course suggests that in the early phase you can reraise with category 1,2, but here there was a raise and a reraise, so I was little bit lost as to whethar or not I should 4 bet and therefore would have to go all in. If I'm posting too many posts and you find some of them unnecessary, I'll take it down a notch. I'm just thankful, for this opportunity that I'm giving and I'm just trying to use it to the greatest extent.

Last edited by andrei17731; Tue May 03, 2011 at 09:39 PM..
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 10:24 PM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks for the reply Andrei,

I am glad that you are doing well and you sure seem to be putting a lot of effort into yr game.

I don't think yr posts are unnecessary but there is a pattern of only playing the hand and not the player or dynamic/texture of the game which is probably why some of yr threads end up with more questions than answers from the people that answer.

I would suggest using the replayer; mainly cos I like pictures and provide some info on yr opponents, your read on them; their range etc. there is only so far you can go by playing the right hands at the right time because in poker this does not always work out. You need to bring more info to the discussion than i think i played this right or i think i played this wrong just because you win or lose the hand.

Another thing I noted was a lot of speech play which can be helpful but also counter productive; might be something you want to look at.

Finally, listen. You mention being grateful for the opportunity but you have to respond in kind when people ask for more info. Don't go on the defensive, these guys are here to advise and help.

GL at the tables

TC
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 11:02 PM
(#8)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
, I don't think that I've ever been defensive through out all my posts. I don't take any of your suggestions or advise as criticisms or insults. If at some point you misinterpreted what I wrote, there was no intention in making it seem that I was insulted. Perhaps It seems this way because I'm too forthright and direct, I mean no aggression towards anyone. But thank you for your post, I'll keep that in mind and try to re-adjust in how I present my inquiries.
 
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Tue May 03, 2011, 11:06 PM
(#9)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Andrei,

I think you will be a future star in poker and a much greater diplomat than I ever could be

TC
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 12:00 AM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssuglia View Post
He was sitting next to the hero.

LOL

In all seriousness, I know I've been harping a bit on what are the reads and you're not giving them andrei, but in this hand I insist. I don't think your play was good generally. But I want to know why you do, because it could be good. So I'll ask again, reads on the villains?
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 04:05 AM
(#11)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
In this hand I had no reads on the villian, only that he doesn't play many hands but he's not aggressive either, so i would say that he's a Tight Passive player. That's as much information that I will be able to provide on the villian. But I felt that is was very unlikely that he had AA or KK, and my reason for shoving in was to double up now so that later in the tournament I will have a huge advantage.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 01:15 PM
(#12)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
I'm not a fan of the shove here. With proper reads (like the villain is 3betting light), I could see a 4bet in this spot.

In fact, a normal sized 4bet might be best given post flop position. You'll be first to act here, and flatting this bet could put you in an awkward spot if a A or K flops.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:30 PM
(#13)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Note: Effective stack is only 14 BBs.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 05:05 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Ok well if he's probalby on the tight passive side then I don't like the shove. It's way too big of an overbet... he 3b's you so he figures to have a good hand (tight-passives don't 3b light) but he's not likely to stack off without QQ+ for this big an overbet. So by making the overbet shove you're basically forcing him to play correctly against your holding, folding worse and getting it in with better.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 05:06 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Note: Effective stack is only 14 BBs.
?? Effective stack = 34 bb's
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 05:32 PM
(#16)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Yeah, whoops. Totally misread something. 34 BBs it is.

Readless I frustratedly dump QQ preflop. Yeah, it's a great hand, but against a raise and a reraise, it may not even be the best hand preflop, let alone when an A or K falls on the board. And you don't close the action, so if you call the original raiser can still come back over the top. Even if he just calls, you're out of position and unlikely to win a big pot. Maybe if you flop a set and AK pairs up they might stack off to you, but at the same time you'd have to seriously consider the possibility that the A or K on the board is making a set with KK or AA. So calling sucks.

If you 4-bet all in, how often are you getting called by worse? AA and KK are calling for sure, AK is not unlikely. What about JJ and TT? Are you playing against people who will raise and small reraise and call all in with those kinds of hands? If so then you might be able to shove for value here, but I think too often that small reraise is AA/KK trying to force a call or some weak hand reraising to isolate. Both situations are horrible for a shove. If TT and JJ will call then you have about 51% equity (against TT+, AKo, AKs) so it's a good value shove. If he only calls JJ+ AKo AKs, then you're about 46%. With the dead money in the pot this is pretty close to the breakeven point.

Might a small 4-bet squeeze out the original raiser and induce a weak shove from the reraiser? Maybe....

Last edited by oriholic; Wed May 04, 2011 at 05:39 PM..
 

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