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Sit&Go Early Phase - 99 On Very Loose/Passive Table

 
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Sit&Go Early Phase - 99 On Very Loose/Passive Table - Wed May 04, 2011, 02:12 PM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This hand happened early in a single table tournament, but I had already picked up on the fact that there was maybe one person besides me sitting at the table that had ever read a poker book. Almost everyone was limping almost everything.

Now, I'm really bad at extracting value from passive players. I'm horrible in general at playing with them in a tournament format. I typically deal with their willingness to play everything by making awkwardly big raises which really leave me susceptible to being bluffed when I miss (because we all know I can't bluff them), and it also makes life really hard when someone else actually has a hand, because my opens basically commit me to each pot.

Help?

 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:40 PM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
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I'd limp in. Early on if you're playing hands like 99, it should usually be for set value.

If you raise preflop you have to bet the flop when checked to, especially when it has an ace. If raised fold, if called slow down. A tight player can fold a bunch of hands that beat you or have a lot of outs (Like KQ). And a loose player can call with hands you have beat like 77 and 88.

I'm definitely folding to that overbet. No point in risking that much with that weak a hand practically readless.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:41 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I'm starting to wonder if just limping my strongish hands (AT+, KJ+, 22-JJ, suited connectors etc.) against people who will never fold would be better than raising. If my post-flop play is better than my opponents, then it serves me to have as big of an SPR as possible.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#4)
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Oh oh oh, forgot. Against loose passive players, you're almost certain to get paid off when you hit big, which is why I prefer limping along here.

The problem with limping hands like AT+ and KJ+ is that they primarily make one pair hands, which are good heads up and in small pots. Of course they can also make nut straights which can be helpful. If you can limp in with them for their monster value, and not overvalue top pair or even two pair, then I think they can be profitable against loose passives as well.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
If you raise preflop you have to bet the flop when checked to, especially when it has an ace.
This isn't really practical against opponents who will stick around with Ax as a massive part of their range. It's a terrible bluff. Against normal opponents who will play pairs, connectors, broadways, etc., this has more merit, although I don't really understand the reasoning behind c-betting Axx boards, since aces should never be folding, and by a related reasoning to your logic, any x on the Axx board shouldn't be folding, either.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:52 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
The problem with limping hands like AT+ and KJ+ is that they primarily make one pair hands, which are good heads up and in small pots. Of course they can also make nut straights which can be helpful. If you can limp in with them for their monster value, and not overvalue top pair or even two pair, then I think they can be profitable against loose passives as well.
This is the big problem I have playing against passives. I agree with this point, but it basically means that I'm never playing a hand post-flop. And I think that it's an arguement to dump conventional standards of what consitutes a strong hand and to only play hands with big monster potential, like suited connectors and pairs for set value, because if you play a pot, it will rarely be against just one or two opponents. Therefore, one pair hands are pretty awful to have.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 02:54 PM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
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Posts: 751
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You're repping a hand like AK. Tight players will often fold their JJ-KK hands, and even some suited aces. Loose players won't, but they may also call with worse. Also, he checked, showing weakness. He may be slow-playing or going for the check-raise, but I think you have to bet that ace.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:01 PM
(#8)
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Deep-stacked, against loose passives I find a semi-loose passive style preflop IN POSITION works well. Then if you make a big hand value bet the hell out of it. I figure they'll pay my big hands off, while I won't fall for their tricks.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:06 PM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I like that strategy. I think I'll try it sometime.

I guess this is just an exercise in adjusting to the table. Aggressive play just fails miserably in some spots. A lot of it is based on fold equity. But your bluffs have no value if you can't get people to fold.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:11 PM
(#10)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I hate calling stations as well and when you get 6 or 7 of them at a table they are so difficult to beat.

I really cannot advise how to counteract this type of play, because they will call every street and raise when they hit something or maybe pretend they have hit something.

Maybe playing Loose Aggressive is the best way to counteract this player type.

TC
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:21 PM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I am pretty loose aggressive by nature, TC. It doesn't work.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:21 PM
(#12)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
I LOVE calling stations as well and when you get 6 or 7 of them at a table $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I really cannot advise how to counteract this type of play, because they will call every street and raise when they hit something or maybe pretend they have hit something.

Maybe playing Loose Aggressive is the WORST way to counteract this player type.

TC
Fixed your post.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:23 PM
(#13)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Just gotta make sure you have sufficient bankroll for all those times they suck out on you.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 03:24 PM
(#14)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks Ori

I will try your strategy next time I am in this situ...

TC
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 04:10 PM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Thanks Ori

I will try your strategy next time I am in this situ...

TC
lol, can't spell situation? That's a weird way to end a sentence.
 
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Wed May 04, 2011, 07:57 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Single table sng with a standard 50/30/20 pay structure I too would limp in pre. You want to only be inflating pots with big hands early in 1 table sngs (this pay structure is a totally different beast from regular mtt's).

I also agree with ori on c-betting this flop. No the loose passive guy isn't folding an ace, but his limp-calling range contains a lot of hands that don't include an ace, and he's generally folding all of those. As an exception to that if he's super loose passive I might make a delayed c-bet, fold if he bets the turn and he'll fold to a delayed c-bet a huge % of the time if he checks again to you.
 
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Thu May 05, 2011, 04:44 AM
(#17)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
lol, can't spell situation? That's a weird way to end a sentence.
Just too damn lazy sometimes
 

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