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I need input on this play

 
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I need input on this play - Fri May 06, 2011, 02:30 PM
(#1)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Should I've played it differently
It was very early in the tournament, so I didn't have much of a read
It wasn't costing much to see the flop
After the flop, I just called to make sure the turn wasn't going to be a flush draw




 
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Fri May 06, 2011, 02:59 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Do you know WHY you are calling in form the BB with a hand like Q2s?

Yes, it is a "small" amount in relation to the stacks in play here, but do you know what hands you "need" to see to continue putting chips in? Do you recognize how OFTEN you are likely to get those hands?

ANY hand can (potentially) be playable in the correct circumstances, but the weaker the hand you try to "speculate" on, the more reliant you are on information about your opponents to make that hand playable. How "strong" a speculative hand is your Q2s?

Speculative hands come in 2 basic "types": those which will tend to flop draws (suited and connected), and those which will tend to flop "big" (pocket pairs). These 2 types tend to be palyable on sort of an "auto-pilot" mode: you either flop a set or an 8 or 9 out draw, or you don't continue very often. You will tend to flop a set (with a pp) about 12% of the time, and with suited middle connectors you will tend to flop an 8 or 9 out draw roughly 21% of the time.

You could consider a 3rd type as being those with a combination of 2 of the facets of hold 'em start hand value, like KJo has marginal high card value (vs a raise) and slight connected value, or your Q2s which has VERY marginal high card value and some suited value. Unlike the first 2 types of spec hands, these types tend to NOT result in "clear" flop decisions very often. Consider...

With un-paired cards, you will only flop 2 pair or trips roughly 4% of the time. You'll flop a flush draw (with suited cards) about 10% of the time. You REALLY need more info on opponents before you play hands like Q2s to speculate, simply because you must have reason to believe you'll get PAID on either a 2 pr/trip flop, or that your opponents will pay your FLUSH (if you make it). Since you are also out of position, you will tend to need info to know if any LESSER flop "hits" are ok for you to put more chips in the pot...see?

So what you do by OVER-calling in for this "small" raise, without information, is really putting yourself into a spot where you MUST flop really "big" to get pair; that's ahppening jsut about 4% of the time only. You have no real clue of the betting patterns, start hand standards, or calling standards of opponents here, so making a flush oop may either be a pricey "chase", or even something they are "smar" enough to avoid paying off.

...not a really good idea w/o info, is it?

Next...

You flop top and bottom pair, and check.
The initial bettor then leads, and gets min raised by the first caller, you just call.

Again, you lack the info to tell you how "good" your 2 pr hit is here, so it is very hard to check/raise the raiser.

You then continue the "passive" line of check/calling your 2 pair, as he continues to bet this pretty strongly. The river comes disaster for you, as it makes any 1 pr Q better now. See how having the INFO to take the lead away may have helped to prevent this from happening?

Bottom line is:

-Know what you "expect" from your hand.
-Know what you "need" to keep going.
-Know you need info on opponents in the hand in order to have ood chance of being paid off on he weaker holdings you may select to take to the flop.

I really do NOT think you should have even considered palying Q2s here, simply because without info on your opponents, you had no clue how much, or even HOW you were likely to get paid off here.

See?
 
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Fri May 06, 2011, 04:34 PM
(#3)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
There seems to be a flaw in your logic on this hand. You say that you 'only called' the flop bet to make sure a heart didn't hit the turn. So you think your ahead on the flop? If you ahead on the flop, then your probably still ahead on the turn when a spade ten hits. Calling his turn bet doesn't make sense then. If you still feel your ahead, the reraise and get value for your two pair. If you thought you were behind after seeing his turn bet, fold. Calling his turn bet thinking your ahead then folding on the river seems like a mistake to me. That said, it is very possible the five pairing the board gave you a second best hand so after getting into that situation playing the way you did, the fold was good in my opinion. Your river play isn't really the issue here though.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Fri May 06, 2011 at 04:37 PM..
 
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Fri May 06, 2011, 04:56 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Just had a quick look and didn't read the replies, but first off I think we should fold pre, not really wanting to purchase the right to play a bad hand out of position.

Waiting for no heart on the turn ok, but if that's so then lead turn, don't check, if the guy was raising a draw you've just given him a free card, and he won't pay off with a busted draw on the end.

As played good fold on the river. The whole question about this hand provides a good example about why you shouldn't call a raise out of the blinds with garbage. You flop pretty darn strong with 2 pair, and still are going to have a hard time playing the hand well being out of position.
 
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Sun May 08, 2011, 12:59 PM
(#5)
StevieJangle's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1
1st mistake .... Insta-Fold Pre ! second mistake check calling, like the other guys said if you thought you wher ahead on the flop/turn you should lead out or check raise, might have been a decent fold on the river but you gave him the chance to steal, he could easily have done that with air (high hearts for eg.)
 
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Sun May 08, 2011, 08:54 PM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I like the Steve Jangle line,

He is Scottish and knows when to fold pre flop.

When you hit you must bet to either eliminate the raiser and caller or bring them along for value. The call on the turn is awful Sand and you are better than that, you either raise him all in or fold. He called the original raise, reraised on the flop and raised on the turn. He may not have trips but you did not even test to see if he had. This early he could be a complete donk for all you know.

Keep to your winning game Sand, it is so much like golf, instead of trying to be Seve, and outmanouvre donks, play safe and wait for a real chance. Then blow them into the water.

Patience, patience, patience but never so patient that you are a nit, and if you look like a nit, use it to steal. You have the game man, don't lose it over mediocrities like this hand.

TC


Edit: I wish JD was in my head every hand I played; then I would maybe stop doing the stupid things instead of the sensible things.


TC

Last edited by topthecat; Sun May 08, 2011 at 08:59 PM..
 

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