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Like poker hand - Sat May 07, 2011, 01:57 AM
(#1)
guitaplaya69's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 64
BronzeStar
So i tried my first real live poker today at the local casino. $60 buy in $1/$2 blinds.

I pick up KJ suited in the small blind, I think 3 or 4 callers before it gets to me so I decide to limp, BB checks. Flop comes AK blank. I check, Early position leads out for $4, everyone folds to me I decide to call. BB folds so were heads up.

turn comes a jack. bingo card I have 2 pair. I check, he bets again for $4, I think for a few seconds and raise to $8, he calls.

River was an Ace, horrible card for me. I check, He bets $10 and I figure I have to call, I feel like im beat but its a decent sized pot and its hard to put him on trip aces. I make the call and he turns over ace 3 off for trips.

So where did I go wrong. I mean this guy is limping in with ace 3 and he calls my check raise on the turn. should I have raised preflop with KJ suited, its a good hand but in the small blind, worst position you could be in and my hand could easily have been dominated.

so do I raise preflop and try to thin the field and pray i connect on the flop, do i give it up on the flop when the ace drops, do i shove all in on the turn...
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 02:46 AM
(#2)
OMGCBF's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 48
Not an expert by any means either but I'd say the following.

KJ really needs help to get there and my feeling is I'd have done the same pre-flop as you, Odds certainly warranted you staying in with a few callers and you connected with the flop so all is good there.

I would probably have bet rather than check after the flop, (about 1/2 pot) to see where you are, if you're called you can beware of the possible Ace behind you and take a pot control line from that point onwards. If you're re-raised you could give it up right there. With 4 ppl in the pot its likely there's an Ace out there. Similarly anyone without an ace is unlikely to call unless they hit 2 pair or trips.

On the Turn presuming you're in because you were only called, you now should have a good idea he's holding an Ace, the choice here is whether to lead right out with a big bet, making him think twice about calling or check-raise as you did or even check call if you're suspicious of trips or a better 2 pair.

On the river it now becomes relatively academic, (assuming a reasonable quality player) there are few hands he should have played to this point that you could beat (not a king, nor a jack, he has either trips of these or the low card on board) the most likely options are Ax, (KK, JJ less likely since you hold one of each) trips with the low or K-low J-low for a lower 2 pair than yours. Bear in mind also at this point that even a single K J or matching low card, or any pair has your K-J Counterfeited. Effectively the only thing you can beat is the lower 2 pair or a bluff or split the pot with another K-J.

Basically I think if it were to go to conclusion you'd still have invested almost the same amount up until the river but had a much easier laydown and save of the final $10 call knowing that you were most likely beat. But playing this way also opens the possibility of an early exit at the flop suspecting he likely has an ace.

I'd be pleased if the analysers would also look through my analysis and see how it stacks up.
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 03:32 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGCBF View Post
KJ really needs help to get there and my feeling is I'd have done the same pre-flop as you, Odds certainly warranted you staying in with a few callers and you connected with the flop so all is good there.
I agree with the preflop call. Two suited broadways play quite well post-flop, especially if the stacks are deep post-flop, and especially if you know when to fold. Now, your stack wasn't deep, so I think this is a case where you might have lost a lot of value by buying in for so little. KJs multi-way has the potential to stack people. But you can't play drawing hands if you're short.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGCBF View Post
I would probably have bet rather than check after the flop, (about 1/2 pot) to see where you are
I disagree with this, becase:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGCBF View Post
With 4 ppl in the pot its likely there's an Ace out there.
In other words, you're probably throwing your money away, and

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGCBF View Post
Similarly anyone without an ace is unlikely to call unless they hit 2 pair or trips.
Which means that if you're actually ahead, nobody is going to give you any money.

Given that you're almost certainly behind on the flop with very little chance to improve, and given that even if you do improve, your position will prevent you from getting paid off, I think that despite the very small lead-out, you should be folding this on the flop. I said earlier that playing KJs is fine, if you know when to fold. Here, you were tricked by hitting the flop, but not in the way you needed to continue. The poker gods were testing you on how to play drawing hands.

 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 03:58 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaplaya69 View Post
turn comes a jack. bingo card I have 2 pair. I check, he bets again for $4, I think for a few seconds and raise to $8, he calls.

River was an Ace, horrible card for me. I check, He bets $10 and I figure I have to call, I feel like im beat but its a decent sized pot and its hard to put him on trip aces. I make the call and he turns over ace 3 off for trips.

So where did I go wrong. I mean this guy is limping in with ace 3 and he calls my check raise on the turn.
Now, I've read that in live play, people are way less aggressive than online. Not everyone who limps preflop is a fish, but people tend to 3bet live like you'll see at the 1c/2c games, which is not very much. This is an arguement to call preflop, I think, because you have to expect that aces will be in some of your opponents' ranges. If you raise preflop, you're probably getting your money in bad. So just call.

The fact that we can expect people to limp aces is part of the arguement not to bet the flop as well. This is because we can't really expect to steal with so many people in the hand. Someone probably has an ace. Someone might even have bottom set.

I've already advocated folding the flop, but as played, I think you should lead the turn. You should be confident that your hand is best here, but a check-raise represents something stronger than a one pair hand. I would assume that Ax would be the bulk of the villain's range on the turn, so I would just lead out for an almost pot-sized bet. It's the play that I think is most likely to get their money in the pot, and in the greatest amount. If you're going to check-raise though, make it bigger than 20% of the existing pot. Check-raise to around $20, or just all-in.

This was a no-limit game, right? I assumed it was from the $10 river bet, but it'd help to have that detail clarified.
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 07:53 AM
(#5)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
When the river comes an Ace.......you have to know you're behind.

JT
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 01:12 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
Definitely like the call preflop. In a multiway pot this is a check-fold vs. an EP bettor on the flop. I think the check-raise is fine on the turn, but the river is a check-fold, you're not beating anything any more except a bluff but the way the hand played out he really can't ever have a bluff here. Time to cut your losses.
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 03:57 PM
(#7)
guitaplaya69's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 64
BronzeStar
thanks for the feedback, ya playing live seems a lot different then online. a lot of people seemed to limp and when the ace hit on the flop, since everyone folded I wanted to see if i could get lucky.

since it was a pretty light table, I should have raised preflop just to try and thin the field and hope i connect, maybe get a weak ace to fold. but with the bored ya my kj was worthless cause any other king would chop.

i had to see a flop cause i was in the small blind so its $1 more with decent hand. I just still dont know if i should have raised, too many players in the hand but there were other hands (i think it was after i lost this hand though) that I raised with AJ or something after a limper or two and got everyone to fold, so maybe a strong raise preflop gets everyone to fold.

with such a high board his ace kicker didn't mean anything so even if I shove on the turn he will probably call figuring his kicker wouldn't play (after the hand he said he's calling with a lot worse) and i should have lead out on the flop/turn and try to buy the pot.

oh well next time i'll get them, but hopefully i can find a way not to lose so much in rake
 
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Sat May 07, 2011, 11:47 PM
(#8)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
No you really don't want to raise all those limpers with that hand, especially not out of position. In this situation, I think you should play KJ suited like a speculative suited connector type hand, look to flop 2 pair or better or a strong draw. Otherwise, check/fold flop. Even if you hit 2 pair be careful as any two broadways have a straight draw.

Check/fold flop. You can check/call a small bet trying to peel the turn, but I don't think you're really deep enough to have good implied odds (especially out of position). Plus, even if you turn 2 pair, it's still dangerous.

For the turn I'd either lead with a potsize bet if your opponent is more the type to call but not bet an ace on that board, or check-raise to at least $18. If he has an ace you want to get value from it, and charge him to draw to his kicker. Your check minraise gives him 7.5 to 1 odds to draw to improve. You want to force him to make a mistake by calling. You are pretty much certain he has an ace. So he has kicker, ace and board blank pairing as outs that's 8 outs, the same as an open ended straight draw, which only needs 4.5 to 1 to complete. Making him call a potsize bet/raise gives him 2 to 1 odds (ie. awful for his draw). If you raise to $18 he has to call $14 to win $40 which is just under 3 to 1. He is making a mistake by calling, and it's +EV for you. With implied odds it's still worth it for him to draw, and he may think there's a chance his hand is already best and you're on a draw with KQ. Just make sure you don't pay him off if an ace hits the river or he gets super excited about what should be a brick (pretty much any small card).

That river is about the worst card you could see as any ace and now KQ have you beat and you're chopping with any smaller K. I'd probably check/fold the river.
 
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Sun May 08, 2011, 05:37 AM
(#9)
bashy27's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
BronzeStar
i would also of thought that the player may also of been betting a draw on the flop with Q 10 so your 2pr could also of given a straight, cash tables are very different to tournies and if your cash table is anything like the ones i play at my casino then you got away cheap, but the river there is always a check fold unless you have nut flush, or are 100% certain that that the villian is not carrying any ace.
 
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Sun May 08, 2011, 04:10 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
No you really don't want to raise all those limpers with that hand, especially not out of position.
+1, you don't want to build a pot out of position with KJ.
 

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