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99 in BB, 2 Limpers from Early Position

 
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99 in BB, 2 Limpers from Early Position - Mon May 09, 2011, 05:11 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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This happened almost 2 hours into PSO, where all of us are technically short-stacked. UTG was a solid player, who's limp put them all-in. But UTG+1 unknown - they'd shoved 2 hands with a medium-sized stack and stolen blinds twice, and this was the first hand they'd limped. Their VPIP was actually really low, like 12% or something, so I thought there was a chance they might have had a pretty strong hand despite the limp and if pushed could easily shove back.

Wasn't really digging being in this position - I felt like there were three options, and none of them were ideal:
1) Just call and get stuck in a multi-way pot.
2) Shove and try and squeeze the limper out of the pot - but I wasn't sure if they'd fold or call; also I had to worry about what UTG was holding, although their stack was smaller so even if they won, I still had the chance of getting the side pot.
3) Raise somewhere in between, as like a 'compromise' attempt on the 'cheap'?? But with that, I felt like there was that chance they might respond by shoving.

I did #3 and they did shove - was that the worst choice of the three? Yikes!



I guess since they hit the flop, they might have shoved post-flop, I which case I might have folded. But maybe if I had shoved, they might have folded I don't know. They didn't seem to be targeting their shoves according to peoples' stats - it seemed more about their hole cards?

Thanks everybody for the help!

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon May 09, 2011 at 05:18 PM..
 
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Mon May 09, 2011, 07:16 PM
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Here's where I'd be, if it were me.

You've got basically 2 choices in my eyes being a shortstack. Either push or fold (checking would be an auto fold postflop if you don't get a 9).
The UTG shove could basically be with anything and since is less than 1BB, I'm not worried about that person or losing to them at all, as I won't even lose a BB if I lost the hand.

UTG+1 player, since you said that he was stealing, could easily be trying to do so again after the flop, since they were limping.... and if they had a real good hand, they'd want to push earlier, to isolate with UTG only.

With a mid pair in this situation, I do not want to be in a multiway pot if I can avoid it and if UTG+1 calls a push, then they will have either a race situation, or an overpair and with a limp, I'd think they have 2 overcards.

With this being a PSO, were you close enough to being ITM, that if you checked and then folded it, you could get ITM without needing to win another hand???? If so, I'd have checked and folded it if I didn't hit the flop. If you need to win a hand to get ITM or if it was after the bubble, then if I play it, I'm going to be the first one to push.
 
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Mon May 09, 2011, 07:49 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
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You actually only have 2 options preflop.

Push
Check

Unless the bubble is going to break within the next two orbits (by that time you will have lost all your fold equity)...Snap shove. This is actually a great spot to make a steal shove as with UTG all in already, your very big hand will get shown and will show that you are pushing strong holdings, making people less likely to get involved with marginal hands. Against UTG you're rarely worse than a coinflip and often way ahead (against smaller pairs--this is the difference between a hand like 55 and 99). If UTG+1 calls, again, you're rarely worse than flipping with 99.

Also remember: If you're planning on calling a shove you might as well just shove yourself. Especially on such a shallow stack (4 BBs!).
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 06:23 AM
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Thanks so much for the help JWK and Oriholic.

I got flustered because of the multi-way thing, and because the other person seemed tight but reckless, which sort of threw me for a loop. But it sounds like I was totally focused on all the wrong things - more than anything I wanted to maximize my point intake, and I like how that was the main thing both of you brought up, but it wasn't part of my analysis at all LOL

I think I was middle of the road overall, just like at this table - not in great shape, but not in terrible shape either.

Now that you both mention it, yeah with pocket 9's the chances were that UTG+1 had 2 overs at worst which was a coin flop, so that was wasn't a horrible position to be in - no reason to fear getting called if I decided to shove. I like the idea too of just folding to the flop if I just wasn't feeling it. Sometimes I get so excited to have a hand, I forget those other options that would have improved my points.

Well, thankfully I was already in positive points territory - thought I was still in the negative, so I did wind up with something. And by going the route I did, I wound up learning a lot from your pointers, so I feel like I'll be much better prepared the next time a situation like this rolls around. Thx again !!
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 10:00 AM
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The more of these that you play, you'll find yourself in these types of situations more and more often. The key is to do whatever you have to do, to get ITM.... then try to get a top 3, then win it.
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
The more of these that you play, you'll find yourself in these types of situations more and more often. The key is to do whatever you have to do, to get ITM.... then try to get a top 3, then win it.
Ya, ya - I'm thinking of trying to tighten up a little bit and see if that improves my points because I seem to be in a bit of a rut, like I might be trying too hard. Because everybody says poker's all about patience - I think I've kind of forgotten that a bit?

And then maybe my new 4-leaf clover will help too (haha)

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue May 10, 2011 at 12:28 PM..
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
This happened almost 2 hours into PSO, where all of us are technically short-stacked. UTG was a solid player, who's limp put them all-in. But UTG+1 unknown - they'd shoved 2 hands with a medium-sized stack and stolen blinds twice, and this was the first hand they'd limped. Their VPIP was actually really low, like 12% or something, so I thought there was a chance they might have had a pretty strong hand despite the limp and if pushed could easily shove back.

Wasn't really digging being in this position - I felt like there were three options, and none of them were ideal:
1) Just call and get stuck in a multi-way pot.
2) Shove and try and squeeze the limper out of the pot - but I wasn't sure if they'd fold or call; also I had to worry about what UTG was holding, although their stack was smaller so even if they won, I still had the chance of getting the side pot.
3) Raise somewhere in between, as like a 'compromise' attempt on the 'cheap'?? But with that, I felt like there was that chance they might respond by shoving.

I did #3 and they did shove - was that the worst choice of the three? Yikes!



I guess since they hit the flop, they might have shoved post-flop, I which case I might have folded. But maybe if I had shoved, they might have folded I don't know. They didn't seem to be targeting their shoves according to peoples' stats - it seemed more about their hole cards?

Thanks everybody for the help!
One other thing to consider in this spot, since it's a PSO, is how points-conscious many players are. UTG+1 is likely limping because he's afraid of being knocked out and losing out on points. (See the inherent problem with the PSO scoring system?) This makes a shove an even better move, because this player looks like he's trying to avoid getting all his chips in the middle.

Making a small raise is a bad play here, you either need to check and see a flop, or shove. What you do is dependent on the action ahead of you, which in this case happened to give you the opportunity to shove, since you had 2 limpers, one of which was all in.

You might actually be able to get away with making a small raise in this spot sometimes in PSO, but that would definitely be a bad habit to get into.
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Unless the bubble is going to break within the next two orbits (by that time you will have lost all your fold equity)...Snap shove. This is actually a great spot to make a steal shove as with UTG all in already, your very big hand will get shown and will show that you are pushing strong holdings, making people less likely to get involved with marginal hands. Against UTG you're rarely worse than a coinflip and often way ahead (against smaller pairs--this is the difference between a hand like 55 and 99). If UTG+1 calls, again, you're rarely worse than flipping with 99.

Also remember: If you're planning on calling a shove you might as well just shove yourself. Especially on such a shallow stack (4 BBs!).
+1. And, if it were a regular pay structure mtt, snap shove 100% of the time here. This is a clear shove for value.
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 07:09 PM
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You think it would have been a decent alternative strategy to pass up an all-in with a same-sized stack and wait for a head-to-head against a smaller stack?

I've noticed most people seem to try to avoid bigger stacks whenever possible? (Something I keep forgetting to do! Yikes!!)

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue May 10, 2011 at 07:33 PM..
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
You think it would have been a decent alternative strategy to pass up an all-in with a same-sized stack and wait for a head-to-head against a smaller stack?

I've noticed most people seem to try to avoid bigger stacks whenever possible? (Something I keep forgetting to do! Yikes!!)
You're starting the hand with 5.5 BB's. Folding this strong a hand on such a short stack would be a serious error.

If you shove, you'll be heads up vs. the 1BB stack who is all in if the limper folds. If the limper calls, you'll be heads up with him holding the best hand (assuming he did not limp behind the 1BB all in with a bigger pair, which he shouldn't ever be doing).

Don't ever pass a strong hand this short. What are you waiting for, you'll be blinded out soon. Do you want to be like this guy with less than 1BB? What if you waited that long and finally got AA? You'd still be at risk of going out, and if it held up, you'd have only 4-5 bb's generally and still be super short stacked. If you get all in and bust them both here you'll actually have some chips, at least a reasonable resteal stack.

BTW the limpers play is yuck too. These stack sizes should be all in or fold, limp/calling it off with KT on a 3.5bb stack is not good.
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
You're starting the hand with 5.5 BB's. Folding this strong a hand on such a short stack would be a serious error.

If you shove, you'll be heads up vs. the 1BB stack who is all in if the limper folds. If the limper calls, you'll be heads up with him holding the best hand (assuming he did not limp behind the 1BB all in with a bigger pair, which he shouldn't ever be doing).

Don't ever pass a strong hand this short. What are you waiting for, you'll be blinded out soon. Do you want to be like this guy with less than 1BB? What if you waited that long and finally got AA? You'd still be at risk of going out, and if it held up, you'd have only 4-5 bb's generally and still be super short stacked. If you get all in and bust them both here you'll actually have some chips, at least a reasonable resteal stack.

BTW the limpers play is yuck too. These stack sizes should be all in or fold, limp/calling it off with KT on a 3.5bb stack is not good.
I'm struggling to think up an answer that sounds reasonable ... can I give another play-versus-sit scenario? This just happened in the last PSO tourney - I had a big enough stack, that if I maintained it, I should have been able to make the money (although there was still some ways to go). Then got dealt AA, so I called the raise from the new person to the table who made a huge raise that led me to rule out pocket 8's to T's, or QJ, which turned out to be wrong. And then I busted out, and I think I'm going to get negative points.



I guess I'm wanting to play more passive to give myself cushion for all the times I make misreads and miscalculations and get negative points? Like a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush ...

On the other hand, by going all in with the pocket 9's and losing I made 10 points (because it was later on in the tourney, but not yet ITM); by going all in with pocket 9's and winning, I should have been able to make the 'money' which would have given me 35 points. By not playing them at all, I probably would have only wound up with about 15. So I guess that's an argument in favor of shoving with the 9's and getting rewarded points-wise over the long-term by taking a risk, like always going for the sure thing maybe isn't as much of a point-getter in the long-run I guess ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue May 10, 2011 at 08:29 PM..
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 10:11 PM
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You have a 21bb stack and some guy just opened for 5x, personally I'm not flatting his raise, I'm 3-betting him. Punish him for raising too much. Make him fold and win 7 bb's uncontested, or make him get all in as a big underdog. You're probably getting it in, players that open for oversized raises like 5x on a 20bb stack probably aren't folding. If they are, you should 3b jam them a bit more liberally as that's so exploitable.
 
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Tue May 10, 2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
You have a 21bb stack and some guy just opened for 5x, personally I'm not flatting his raise, I'm 3-betting him. Punish him for raising too much. Make him fold and win 7 bb's uncontested, or make him get all in as a big underdog. You're probably getting it in, players that open for oversized raises like 5x on a 20bb stack probably aren't folding. If they are, you should 3b jam them a bit more liberally as that's so exploitable.
I totally agree. With that hand and his 5X.... I'm taking those chips now or he's paying and is way behind.... and hoping for a call.
 
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Wed May 11, 2011, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
You have a 21bb stack and some guy just opened for 5x, personally I'm not flatting his raise, I'm 3-betting him. Punish him for raising too much. Make him fold and win 7 bb's uncontested, or make him get all in as a big underdog. You're probably getting it in, players that open for oversized raises like 5x on a 20bb stack probably aren't folding. If they are, you should 3b jam them a bit more liberally as that's so exploitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I totally agree. With that hand and his 5X.... I'm taking those chips now or he's paying and is way behind.... and hoping for a call.
I guess it's like ssuglia noted - PSO's such a great opportunity to learn and practice poker, but the way it's set up, sometimes it does seem like there's more points to be made for not playing. And then yeah, does that mean there's the danger of picking up habits that would work against play in other environments? And also, without playing in difficult situations and making mistakes, how else would there be the chance to come back to Hand Analysis and get feedback and learn from the experience?

I want to make money in the league, which is hard when I keep getting eliminated outside the money But I'm learning so much by just doing my thing and then getting feedback, that maybe that's more valuable in the long-run. Oooh, but I still want the money

This second hand - I kind of went and repeated the same weird non-shove we were talking about with the first hand. It doesn't show in the replayer, but I took my time thinking through all the options of whether to 3-bet or even shove based on what we had been talking about. I decided just to call, solely because it was AA and the odds were so good to win by the river. The 'villain' - now that I think about it, I guess I read too much into the fact that their PFR was so big, when maybe they were just looking to pick up blinds and antes? And then was that a huge red flag I missed that give their pre-flop raise was so big, it was really weird for them to make such a tiny post-flop raise into such a huge pot? I read into it that they had missed the flop and had something like AK, but now that I think about it you think they were they worried I had AK (since I didn't 3bet them pre-flop like most people would in that situation, and then just checked post-flop) and were just trying to get me to call to try and extract what they could?

That board was pretty bad for AA, wasn't it? Even 77 or JJ still had 10 outs after the flop. Really I was only in great shape against AK or KK, maybe AQ or QQ. When they gave me the opportunity to see the turn for cheap, I guess should I have just taken that chance to pot control? D'oh!

PS Dave, the points structure in PSO is kind of weird, because you get more points for making the 'money' (top 10%), but you don't make any more for making final table unless you finish top 3. And then, people still get points for finishing anywhere from top 40% on, although the points are much less. But then you get negative points for finishing any lower than that. So not playing poker seems to have become an integral part of the league, and we all take our time not playing every hand. I guess is that unique to PSO?

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed May 11, 2011 at 07:29 AM..
 
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Wed May 11, 2011, 01:00 PM
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it's not + for top 40%. It's based on your score from the leaderboard page. It can be anywhere from top 50% to top 20%, depending on where you're at.

It's a floating number, as your score goes up or down.

P.S. I've used the way that I've played and learned in the PSO tournies live too (use what you'll learn and you'll be better off).... and minus the occasional bad beat, been cashing in a good number of them (wish I could play in them alot more than I do, as I normally only get to play 5-6/year).
 
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Wed May 11, 2011, 11:11 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
it's not + for top 40%. It's based on your score from the leaderboard page. It can be anywhere from top 50% to top 20%, depending on where you're at.

It's a floating number, as your score goes up or down.

P.S. I've used the way that I've played and learned in the PSO tournies live too (use what you'll learn and you'll be better off).... and minus the occasional bad beat, been cashing in a good number of them (wish I could play in them alot more than I do, as I normally only get to play 5-6/year).
Congrats on all the success JWK!! That's exciting to hear!

And good luck, good luck, good luck with the WSOP qualifier!

 

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