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No pair no draw??? Anaylse wer i went wrong?

 
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No pair no draw??? Anaylse wer i went wrong? - Mon May 16, 2011, 01:29 AM
(#1)
FOLD OR L0SE's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
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PokerStars Game #62125233043: Tournament #387020606, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2011/05/15 15:29:31 WET [2011/05/15 10:29:31 ET]
Table '387020606 34' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: bigslick1926 (3279 in chips)
Seat 2: ThomasM2010 (1370 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: fenixwell (2000 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: Water888TW (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: jjzgh (1550 in chips)
Seat 6: Rutwinus (2854 in chips)
Seat 7: Gotez (1520 in chips)
Seat 8: FOLD OR L0SE (1149 in chips)
Seat 9: Fugu123 (1647 in chips)
Rutwinus: posts small blind 25
Gotez: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FOLD OR L0SE [Jh Kd]
FOLD OR L0SE: raises 66 to 116
Fugu123: folds
bigslick1926: calls 116
ThomasM2010: folds
fenixwell: folds
Water888TW: calls 116
jjzgh: folds
Rutwinus: calls 91
Gotez: folds
*** FLOP *** [Th Jd 3c]
Rutwinus: checks
FOLD OR L0SE: bets 339
bigslick1926: folds
Water888TW: folds
Rutwinus: calls 339
*** TURN *** [Th Jd 3c] [6c]
Rutwinus: checks
FOLD OR L0SE: bets 694 and is all-in
Rutwinus: calls 694
*** RIVER *** [Th Jd 3c 6c] [Ac]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rutwinus: shows [5s Ah] (a pair of Aces)
FOLD OR L0SE: shows [Jh Kd] (a pair of Jacks)
Rutwinus collected 2580 from pot
FOLD OR L0SE finished the tournament in 361st place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2580 | Rake 0
Board [Th Jd 3c 6c Ac]
Seat 1: bigslick1926 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: ThomasM2010 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: fenixwell folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Water888TW folded on the Flop
Seat 5: jjzgh (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Rutwinus (small blind) showed [5s Ah] and won (2580) with a pair of Aces
Seat 7: Gotez (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: FOLD OR L0SE showed [Jh Kd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 9: Fugu123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

opinons?
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 01:33 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You put all of your money in while you were ahead. No problem there.

KJo might have been a fold preflop from your UTG position. Especially so if this was a league game. But you were rivered. There's not much to analyze.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 01:54 AM
(#3)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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YEP UTG WITH KJ OFF IS A FOLD AT THIS POINT IN A LEAGUE GAME
THERE'S A LOT OF TIME TO GET YOUR CHIPS IN WITH SOMETHING MUCH BETTER

GOOD LUCK

 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 02:29 AM
(#4)
oriholic's Avatar
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The way you play I don't mind you playing KJ here. Playing LAG is just fine if you know what you're doing. KJ is a more dangerous hand than many, but if you're going to raise 94 you might as well raise KJ.

You were against a twerp who called down with ace high on a board where ace high is virtually never good. You got it in way ahead, and he sucked out. Remember that guy and value bet him to death next time you see him. He can't river an ace every time. Don't be results-oriented, you were the real winner in this hand.

There's more than one way to play guys. With all the nits in PSO, playing LAG has a lot of merit if you pay attention and don't overvalue your hands.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 11:33 AM
(#5)
shirshot's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 665
KJ off UTG is a instafold 99% of the time.
You will get yourself into more trouble with this hand than it is worth.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 11:46 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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I'm assuming this was a league game.

That early in one of them, KJo from UTG needs to be a fold preflop. The whole goal in these is to make it as far as you can without busting.... and you do not want any busts before the top 20%, that way you're always going to get + league points for it and above all, get ITM as much as possible.. even if you only have 1 chip left when you get ITM.

Once you're in the hand, if you're going to push, I'd have done it on the flop. That way you don't let someone develop a draw on the turn or you don't let someone draw at a broadway straight for free. You got extremely unlucky by getting outdrawn by a player that should have never been in the hand after the flop, and pushing there might have gotten them to drop.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 01:02 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
23 bb's fold KJo from EP.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 01:05 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
The way you play I don't mind you playing KJ here. Playing LAG is just fine if you know what you're doing. KJ is a more dangerous hand than many, but if you're going to raise 94 you might as well raise KJ.

You were against a twerp who called down with ace high on a board where ace high is virtually never good. You got it in way ahead, and he sucked out. Remember that guy and value bet him to death next time you see him. He can't river an ace every time. Don't be results-oriented, you were the real winner in this hand.

There's more than one way to play guys. With all the nits in PSO, playing LAG has a lot of merit if you pay attention and don't overvalue your hands.

Opening KJ utg with a 23bb stack is not good LAG play.

And vs. someone who's opening as wide as 94 and is known to barrel air, ace high will actually be good unimproved a fair bit. The villains line is high variance to be sure, but if the OP is playing as described then the villains line is not that out of line.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 02:45 PM
(#9)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Why not open any two as a steal from early position against a table of nits?

Also, while he will open really wide, and C-bet all the time, once his flop bet gets called/raised he generally knows to shut it down. If he's still betting on the turn, I'd have to put him on some kind of decent made hand.

Also, based on M-zone theory, isn't this exactly where you're supposed to be playing pure high card hands? M between 10 and 20?
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 04:17 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Why not open any two as a steal from early position against a table of nits?

Also, while he will open really wide, and C-bet all the time, once his flop bet gets called/raised he generally knows to shut it down. If he's still betting on the turn, I'd have to put him on some kind of decent made hand.

Also, based on M-zone theory, isn't this exactly where you're supposed to be playing pure high card hands? M between 10 and 20?

-The hands that will call you will often have you dominated when you hold KJ

-You'll often be required to barrel when you do get called, but on a 23 bb stack you're not deep enough to barrel and still escape when they don't go away.

-In response to your specific question, opening any 2 as a steal is not good LAGging. Not all "trash" hands are created equally. Vs. a tight opponent I'd rather be stealing with 97o than KJo for example, since when the tight guy gives us action 97 will often be live and KJ often dominated.

-OP didn't say anything about this being a table of nits?? I think someone surmised this was a PSO league game but at this blind level there are still tons of loose and poor players in. Case in point, villains play is anything but nitty in this hand.

All my opinion anyway, fwiw.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 05:07 PM
(#11)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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how often does stealing work early in a pso game (and it is for sure a pso game) all thats going to happen is an early exit 80% of the time. so if you are looking to move up the leader board you have to fold just my opinion

good luck

 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 05:41 PM
(#12)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Fair enough. My experience has been that PSO is mostly polarized between total gamblers/loose bad players and total nits. As long as you can tell who's who it's fairly easy to find spots.

I agree I'd rather steal with 96 than KJ because if called I will almost always have two live cards and know where I stand. Still, if you know that people are going to fold KQ, AT, even AJ to your steal raise, and will only have to worry about a very tiny range of hands when it comes to the flop. Granted this is obviously not a table full of nits considering this guy's play.

However just because I'd prefer to steal with 96, does that mean I won't/shouldn't steal with a couple of broadways? Say 96 is ranked 60/100 on my scale, and KJ is ranked 50/100. If I'm in a spot where I'm playing anything better than a 40 on my scale, while I'd prefer a 60 to a 50, a 50 is still good enough, no?

Plus I guess there's the problem that raise-folding a hand with as much strength as KJ is worse than doing it with a weaker hand which you won't feel obligated to play.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 05:46 PM
(#13)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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i agree with what you say everywhere but pso

good luck

 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 09:17 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
As long as you can tell who's who it's fairly easy to find spots.
Absolutely agree. Which is another reason I think this is a bad open... likely some mix of both at this stage and being UTG we don't have a specific spot we can target.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 09:31 PM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If I understand LAG play correctly, it's just not something that should be in your arsenal unless you're medium- or deep-stacked. Stealing can be, but you need position to do that. So, since the OP is OOP, they can't steal. And since they're short, they can't play LAG. That means KJo should be a fold preflop, regardless of the OP's personal style and level of skill, imo.
 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 09:49 PM
(#16)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If I understand LAG play correctly, it's just not something that should be in your arsenal unless you're medium- or deep-stacked. Stealing can be, but you need position to do that. So, since the OP is OOP, they can't steal. And since they're short, they can't play LAG. That means KJo should be a fold preflop, regardless of the OP's personal style and level of skill, imo.


 
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Mon May 16, 2011, 10:38 PM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If I understand LAG play correctly, it's just not something that should be in your arsenal unless you're medium- or deep-stacked. Stealing can be, but you need position to do that. So, since the OP is OOP, they can't steal. And since they're short, they can't play LAG. That means KJo should be a fold preflop, regardless of the OP's personal style and level of skill, imo.
+1
 
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Fri Jun 03, 2011, 01:38 PM
(#18)
FOLD OR L0SE's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
The way you play I don't mind you playing KJ here. Playing LAG is just fine if you know what you're doing. KJ is a more dangerous hand than many, but if you're going to raise 94 you might as well raise KJ.

You were against a twerp who called down with ace high on a board where ace high is virtually never good. You got it in way ahead, and he sucked out. Remember that guy and value bet him to death next time you see him. He can't river an ace every time. Don't be results-oriented, you were the real winner in this hand.

There's more than one way to play guys. With all the nits in PSO, playing LAG has a lot of merit if you pay attention and don't overvalue your hands.
I appreciate the advice oriholic I deffo hear the LAG > high variance style i use, altho it may be aggrssive, still is very much small ball poker, with preflop raise @ only 2.33 x BB then Cbet buttons set @ 39%/57%/86% of the pot pending on board textures opponents range. I ovb. ran in to a mega donk here...

My opinon to others who posted on thread regarding opening pot UDG with KJoff is simple really we do not get enough top ranking hands to be sitting there waiting for clock to tick down then folding, I apply the same theory in MTT's on stras & have a good track record, please see link below

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...D2D86.html?t=2


thanks for replies peeps, may be 1 day soon ill learn how to NIT it up :P

 

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