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An Idea for an Educational Game

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An Idea for an Educational Game - Tue May 17, 2011, 02:06 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I came up with an idea for a poker game, so I'm posting a thread about it to see if anyone would be interested. This game idea is purely intended to generate a learning experience for the people who want to play, so that they can get better at the game. If you like the idea, let me know so I can see if this is a feasible idea or not.

The idea: a bunch of PSO'ers play a game of Hold'em for play money chips in a home game club. After the game is over, all players who sat at the final table send their hand histories to one player so that person can compile them into a hand replayer, which would replay the entire final table session with hole cards up. After that's done, the players would meet on Ventrilo for a screen-sharing session to watch the game and discuss the play. Players would be able to talk about situations that arose where they might question their play or feel that they had to make a difficult decision. Hopefully we would also have someone present who could objectively analyze the game and point out a few spots where players could improve on their play. This would be a friendly session designed to help people discuss their own play with other players in a respectful environment, but also in a situation where they can look at the game in a new way.

Anyone would be welcome, but there are a few requirements for anyone who would want to play:

1) Everyone would need to have Ventrilo on their computer and access to the Suited Aces channel. Anyone who doesn't would need to download Ventrilo and be granted access to the Suited Aces channel by one of its administrators (not me; I believe that the Suited Aces admin reserve the right to deny membership, so I can't personally guarantee anyone that they'd be accepted). Everyone would also need the technology to hear the sound come out of their computer and verbally talk back to everyone as well.

2) Ventrilo + screen-sharing programs tend to make computers run slow. Anyone attending the replay of the game would need to have a relatively fast computer capable of running both programs at once. Anyone who doesn't would likely experience a severe lag between the discussion and the visual replay.

3) Since effsea has very kindly agreed to set up the game in his home game club, anyone wanting to play would need to be a Drunk Tank member. At the moment, the Drunk Tank is near capacity though, so if enough people who don't have a Drunk Tank membership showed interest, then I could just set up a club of my own for the game.

4) Everyone would need to be willing to share their hand histories with everyone. This just means that you would need to save them to your hard drive, then send them (likely by email) to the person who would do the compilation of the hand histories (probably me, since I've figured out how to do it).

4) Everyone would need to agree to be respectful of the other members while playing and while reviewing each others' play.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I'll edit this post or add something below if I think of more information later. If you're interested, post here so I know. I think that this could be a great opportunity to improve how we play. And learning = fun. So be interesed!!!

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Tue May 17, 2011 at 02:10 AM.. Reason: Takes two tries to spell.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 04:33 AM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
i think this is one of the best ideas that's been posted

good luck

 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 04:53 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Thanks. We'll see how it goes. I don't think I need many people to get this to work. Six would be just fine. More than that would be great, but if even a small number of people show interest, this could work as either a one-time thing or a regular study session. Come to think of it, this could work in either tournament format or cash game format.

If there are any NLHE cash players who are interested in a study group structured like this, let me know over PM. I could definitely use some other people to bounce cash game ideas off of, as I'm a cash game player myself. I might actually start a seperate thread just for that some other time.

Anyway, I'm going to bed soon. I guess I'll see how this thread looks in the morning.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 08:33 AM
(#4)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Are you a member of the Suited Aces flop social forum ?

If so, have a look at the post I made on 21st March, it may give you some extra ideas.

 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 11:16 AM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Its a good idea Panicky. I would be interested if I can get organised enough to play.

TC
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 12:43 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
If so, have a look at the post I made on 21st March, it may give you some extra ideas.
That's a mean game of hide-and-go-seek, Bill. Maybe it's 'cause I just woke up, but I've done a whole bunch of advanced searches of the forums and blogs, and I can't find your post.

Breakfast time!

So, topthecat is on the list, anyhow.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 01:37 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
flop social forum
Interesting. Looks like I completely miss key words when I haven't had my breakfast yet... Wow.

Alright, I'll go check out that post in a little bit. I have to go out on a personal errand at the moment.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 01:39 PM
(#8)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
He's off to the loo
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 02:04 PM
(#9)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
Are you a member of the Suited Aces flop social forum ?

If so, have a look at the post I made on 21st March, it may give you some extra ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
That's a mean game of hide-and-go-seek, Bill. Maybe it's 'cause I just woke up, but I've done a whole bunch of advanced searches of the forums and blogs, and I can't find your post.

Breakfast time!

So, topthecat is on the list, anyhow.
Be careful mentioning "rival forums" I got a warning for doing so, which seems strange seeing that PS seem to post more in other forums than they do here.

Good idea Panicky though it relying on the use of Vent may restrict the number of people wishing to utilise it and I think any training tool should be entirely accesible from within the PS system.

I had always thought a good training tool would be to regularly have a table of PS Pros, or other suitably selected players, play a table and give audio on their thinking on each hand as they played it, not live of course but via a replayer where it was shown cards up, don't think the audio facility exists but it would be interesting to hear the logic behind their plays and to be able to jump from one player to another to hear their views on a hand as you see it unfold.

To hear the thinking behind why an understrength hand was played, a certain bet size was placed, or how a bluff was read, etc, would certainly be a useful instrument and would help a lot of players expand their thinking from inside the box.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 02:19 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Going over the reasons people make the plays that they do is a big part of this idea. I think it would really help people learn to think more if they say aloud why they did what they did, and it would help people understand other players' thoughts if they heard other people's explanations, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogweed1964 View Post
Good idea Panicky though it relying on the use of Vent may restrict the number of people wishing to utilise it and I think any training tool should be entirely accesible from within the PS system.
I really think that this is entirely accessible. There's no reason I can think of why this shouldn't be, for someone with a decent computer and a bit of money to pay for headphones and a mic. Ventrilo is free software and the SA group doesn't do a lot of discriminating when letting people in. If PSO had the capabilities to run something like this, not only would I jump on it right away, but I imagine others would have before me. I think that this is just more of an organizational hassle than anything else, and I hope that nobody thinks that getting Ventrilo would be impossible for them.

And no, TC, I'm going to apply for some ID so I can get into a casino at some point. But nice try.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 02:28 PM
(#11)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
And no, TC, I'm going to apply for some ID so I can get into a casino at some point. But nice try.
Live games now Panicky; can see you going places young man

I reckon this educational tool idea will be very useful and look forward to it being up and running.

TC
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 03:11 PM
(#12)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Going over the reasons people make the plays that they do is a big part of this idea. I think it would really help people learn to think more if they say aloud why they did what they did, and it would help people understand other players' thoughts if they heard other people's explanations, too.



I really think that this is entirely accessible. There's no reason I can think of why this shouldn't be, for someone with a decent computer and a bit of money to pay for headphones and a mic. Ventrilo is free software and the SA group doesn't do a lot of discriminating when letting people in. If PSO had the capabilities to run something like this, not only would I jump on it right away, but I imagine others would have before me. I think that this is just more of an organizational hassle than anything else, and I hope that nobody thinks that getting Ventrilo would be impossible for them.

And no, TC, I'm going to apply for some ID so I can get into a casino at some point. But nice try.

All I'm saying is that a PS/PSO training tool will need to be solely controlled by PS/PSO. Hosting it at Vent leaves it open to issues outside of the control of PS/PSO., ie Suited Aces shutting down or being barred from Vent, etc etc.

The idea is very good, all I am saying is it needs to be absorbed and become part of PS/PSO. Like a lot of ideas many have had here it needs PS/PSO to think outside the box and look at what members actually want and how to, if it seriously wants to, provide training tools that will truly satisfy the demand for more a sophisticated need for poker teaching tools.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 03:56 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Alright. I see your point. For what it's worth, I'm not trying to act on behalf of the PSO administration, I'm just trying to offer a new opportunity for PSO's members. But that's a valid point.

ID will arrive within 45 days.
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 06:22 PM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
i also think this is an awesome idea PP. i dont come close to knowing anything about the technical logistics of actually doing it w/ mics but it seems it would be ezpeezy if it were done w/ chat and an anylizer or two with mics similar to live training.. to have 9 or 10 peeps w/ mics would get awefully hectic when more that one person had something they wanted to interject, but still, kudos for a great idea, stack em high.....MT
 
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Tue May 17, 2011, 08:41 PM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You'd just need to plug a mic into your computer (should be pretty easy; plug it in and do a sound check on your computer's built-in sound recording program). My mic + headphones take up all of one USB port, and they didn't need any kind of installation. They just worked right away.

With more than 6 people, I'd just make sure to have somebody lead the discussion. Maybe have one person announce the action, and if anyone had a question, they could just pipe up. Like a normal discussion with a roomful of people. It'd take a bit of organization, but I think I could manage it.
 
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Wed May 18, 2011, 01:51 AM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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This can be run simply as a STUDY GROUP type idea.

As such, there need be no participation form PSO or PS as it would simply be players meeting with the goal of working together to improve their games.

As for admin approval for entry into the Suited Aces, I have admin there, and will gladly approve anyone wishing to take part in a group of this type.

Regarding logisitics of mic "over-lap", that is relatively easy. 9 or 10 people is hardly a "large" group, so if it is a re-player session of the final table, that isn;t a big deal. We have had as many as 25 or 30 people in a Suited Aces study gorup session and conducted it without excessive over-lap of talk. All it takes is a bit of mutual respect.

Fact is, since it would be a re-player session of hands, then most likely the person whose hands we are "observing" (presumably the event winner), would generally "lead" talk about the hand. In reasonably played events, it is pretty rare to have final table flops seen by more than 2 or 3 people at most, so the number of people with "input" on a given hand would be small. Obviously, AFTER the hand plays out, we'd open it for people to ask QUESTIONS of the participants, but those questions are easily handled by individual respect for each other, to avoid excessive comment over-lap.

so this is entirely do-able...

Just let me know when you want to set it up.
 
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Wed May 18, 2011, 02:17 AM
(#17)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
count me in


 
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Wed May 18, 2011, 02:40 AM
(#18)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Fact is, since it would be a re-player session of hands, then most likely the person whose hands we are "observing" (presumably the event winner), would generally "lead" talk about the hand.
Nope. All hole cards shown. All hands observed. Same deal as the Sunday Major final table coverage on pokerstars.tv, except with participation from the players themselves. The event winner could definitely lead discussion though. That's one possibility.

This would be a study group session; you're quite right, JDean. But I didn't think that this could easily be organized on Ventrilo, since you can't really post a news bulletin there for people to see whenever they join the channel. So I put an interest thread here. The peeps on Vent don't seem to all come here daily though, so I'm giving it some time.

So... TC and joker are interested so far. Including me, that makes a total of three players. Numbers are growing!

 
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Wed May 18, 2011, 10:13 AM
(#19)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Panicky, I have found the original post from the flop social and am reproducing it here for your perusal.

I would greatly appreciate some feedback for this.

This is a suggestion that I would like all readers to think over for a while before replying.

I have been mulling this over for a couple of days now and I believe that is a possibility that needs following up.

Since the inception of Home Game Clubs, there is now the real possibility of using the 'PSO' as a School.

If a Home Game Club was set up specifically for this purpose, then in conjunction with Ventrilo and Mikogo, a Schoolroom situation could be created.

My suggestion is this: ( and please feel very free to pick as many holes as possible in it )

Using the Play Money portion of the Home Game, set up a 'Ring Game'.

At the Table would be seated 'ONE' student for whom the session is intended. The rest of the table to be made up of players who would be prepared to play the hands as if they were playing for 'REAL' money. ( in other words play their normal game ) ( all players to sit out, as soon as registering, until the lesson begins )

The 'Student' would then set up a Mikogo session, and be in Ventrilo in one of the Shadow session rooms.

The 'Teacher', and anyone else interested in the lesson, ( but not the players at the Table ) would then join the Mikogo session and enter the shadow session room.

The other players would of necessity not be allowed to join either the Mikogo or Shadow, as this would tend to alter their game. Also the hands could be discussed with the Student during the hand and would in no way compromise the game,

As soon as the cards are dealt for each hand, everyone at the Table must check the sit out next hand box. ( This may not work as I have had no opportunity to test whether it would or not. It may not be feasible to rejoin the game all at the same time, human reflexes are slower than most computers after all, )
But the idea is to pause the game to give the Student the opportunity to find out whether the 'Teacher' and the other interested parties considered his/her play reasonable, and to use the 'Previous Hand' button to replay the hand if necessary.
Thus being able to comment on bet sizing , positional play etc. etc.

It may not be a good idea to sit out after each and every hand, but I think that the sit out option would be an excellent way of pausing the game, so that a particular point could be hammered out completely, whilst it is still fresh in everyones mind, rather than come back to it at a later time when the circumstances have become a little vague.

The cue for the pause would be the 'Student' sitting out.

I have suggested the use of Play Money, so that there could be no possibility of a charge of Collusion being levied, as there would be no monetary gain made by anyone involved.
The only 'gain' made, would be educational.

I know that, Cowboy in particular, does Mikogo sessions for review of Hand Histories, and these are excellent tutorials, but most of the time Cowboy cannot recall the exact reasons for doing what he did.
JDean also does a lot of Shadow sessions, but has to restrict his comments on a hand until after it is over and the next hand is in play. This, I believe, has a distracting effect on the player being shadowed.

With the format I suggest here, I think both of these people would be better able to impart their knowledge to the 'Students'.

I strongly believe that, because the Play Money option was included in Home Games, part of intent of PokerStars in starting Home Game Clubs, was for them to be used in a way similar to this.
So that Club Managers would bring their friends along to play, even if they were total beginners, and allow them the opportunity to teach them how to play, and thereby increase ( at least potentially ) their Client Base.

 
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Wed May 18, 2011, 03:46 PM
(#20)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Thanks for pulling it up, Bill. I like the idea, particularly because it does make use of home game clubs for something with a pretty sophisticated purpose. And I like learning. So lesons are great.

I think that getting multiple players to commit their time (I'm guessing 5+) for the sake of teaching one person might be a bit hard to coordinate, and sitting out regularly would sort of extend the time commitment, so it might be hard to pull off if only one person is benefitting, but the idea is workable.

I prefer hand replay sessions because you can stop and give as much time as you need to each hand, although the info isn't fresh in everyone's head, for sure. So that is one problem with replay sessions. I like the cash game idea though, and wouldn't be opposed to trying some sort of educational game. Still hoping this one goes somewhere, though.

 

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