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$8 Full-Ring MTT: 75s Button Squeeze Spot

 
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$8 Full-Ring MTT: 75s Button Squeeze Spot - Tue May 24, 2011, 06:59 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Here's a spot that I came across in my last MTT that I thought might be a fun squeeze spot. I figured that I might be able to get away with robbing a nice pot, but I also figured that if someone called, I'd be playing a pretty good drawing hand, in position, with initiative, and with a lot of dead money in the pot, so it might actually be profitable be get called here. I was worried about getting 4bet, because the blinds were both capable of it, and I didn't have the rockiest image in the world. It's the sort of play I love to experiment with in cash games. Thoughts on a squeeze play here?

MP1: Running 16/11/8, didn't stand out as either a shark or a fish, only note I had on them was that they seemed like an aggressive semibluffer

MP3: Running 67/0/0, but over only 3 hands, so no significant reads

Me: Running somewhere in the area of 22/18/10, if memory serves; won the previous pot after opening from SB, getting called, and c-betting big on both the flop and turn; besides that, I hadn't been very active lately

The table had seen two or three players bust out in the prior ten minutes. The table had more loose/passives than any other player profile, but the loosest and most passive were the ones who had recently busted. The blinds behind me were running 29/14/33, and 25/13/14.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 8.8 Tournament, 60/120 Blinds 15 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 (t5152)
MP1 (t5896)
MP2 (t4969)
MP3 (t4731)
CO (t3696)
Panicky (Button) (t5157)
SB (t4785)
BB (t12767)
UTG (t7344)

Panicky's M: 16.37

Preflop: Panicky is Button with 7, 5
2 folds, MP1 bets t240, 1 fold, MP3 calls t240, 1 fold, Panicky ???
 
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Tue May 24, 2011, 11:58 AM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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If you call the BB almost has to call as well. Then you take 75 suited in position 4 or 5 way to a flop where you can possibly win a big pot.

The problem with a squeeze here is that it looks like MP1 has been relatively tight with his opens and HJ is a call station. At least you have position if they don't fold, but I'd rather keep my contribution to the pot small and hope to flop a monster/monster draw.
 
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Wed May 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Hey Panicky - is that the 'Dan Harrington'?

Have you too been reading articles like How To Win When You're Card Dead?

I think your game's a lot more advanced than mine, because I haven't really tried anything like this - still trying to get a feel for who'll fold and who'll call, and it seems like people are folding when I'm hoping they'll call (granted those players were good), and people are calling when I'm hoping they'll fold. But I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the situation.

From your descriptions and just my guesses I would guess that MP3 would likely fold, as well as possibly SB since they have so little invested (just a guess)? But MP1 with a VPIP of 16, playing from middle position seems like the raise might have to be pretty substantial to get them to reconsider, and BB seems like they could possibly reraise with a pretty wide range of hands, just in case you're doing what you're doing?

Is the idea of a squeeze play to get people to fold so you steal the blinds? And if that didn't happen in this case, I guess you have a lot of contingencies set up to offset that - implied odds with a drawing hand. And from your description of MP1 as being an "aggressive semibluffer" it sounds like you might have a read on them? And if BB even if they decide to get involved more as a defensive gesture, if they don't connect on the flop will probably ditch the pot if they don't connect. Also, I know you're a good player Panicky, so I know you've got the ability to make people think your 75s is really KK. And then there's the polarization thing (if MP1 has AQo, etc)

I've seen people play like this who have been able to build a big stack really fast. But once somebody calls them down to the river then everybody gets to see their game and then that sort of took away their ability to steal pots in the future as they started to get push back with just about everything - people were calling their K9s raise with like A3o or whatever.

I'm still trying to master the basics though - seem to be doing a bit better in PSO lately so that's been nice
 
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Wed May 25, 2011, 11:07 PM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
It's great that you've been doing better, Sam. This was just an idea I had at the time, but your review of the situation makes me think that it might have been a bad spot for it. The open raiser was running fairly regular stats. That means that they weren't all that laggy, and very easily could have 4bet me. The blinds were just an added concern, because one of them would also have a 4betting hand (for them) likely upwards of 20% of the time. Overall, 3betting here would probably have been a bad play, but in a similar situation with tighter blinds and a laggier opener, it might have been pretty good.

@Ori, I agree with you about MP1. The HJ isn't necessarily a station, and I'm not all that concerned about him yet. I hate not having a clear read, but I don't expect him to call a well-sized squeeze. I disagree about calling, though. I've tried taking passive preflop lines in position with speculative hands like 75s before, and I think it's bad for two reasons: 1) it allows the blinds to squeeze, which they look likely to do, and 2) it tends to drive my own stats up around 42/25, and I generally bust out quickly when I get myself in iffy spots postflop and the money isn't deep. An SPR between 4 and 5 needs my hand to flop big often, I think. 75s just won't flop it often enough.
 
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Thu May 26, 2011, 07:58 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Thx!

I like that idea of exploring ways to extract value outside the traditional box. But you know why else this kind of stuff is more advance than my level of play is because I only have about 2 hours total of deep stack experience, so most of these moves are out of the question LOL.

I remember trying a big raise once when I was in the BB with 5 or 6 limpers, with no intention of ever playing my junk hand - but I actually got a caller ... horrors! So I'm trying to stick mostly to the basics.

But do keep us posted on your experiments with those advanced moves - fun to hear about your progress!
 
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Sat Jun 04, 2011, 04:04 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Hey, so here's some of my latest experiments. I've been trying kind of a modified squeeze play. It doesn't fit all the elements all the time, but it's similar to a squeeze in that my hand wasn't really a shoving hand, and I wasn't really looking to play the cards. I guess it's not like a squeeze play in that I was shoving with what I figured was probably the best hand, so that if I were to get called I should be in okay shape.

This first one, the big stack VPIPs were around 45% and 50% - loose but not super reckless, and the button was looser in late position. I think my VPIP was around 25% - tight, but not super picky. It worked out pretty well - the only thing is that after I got the 200 chips, button said "donk at every table" Oh well



This second one I was actually in the BB not on the button. The big stack limper VPIPs were 80% and 70%, and one of them was super aggressive, but the other one was a bit of a calling station. I think my VPIP was around 15% at that table. Probably it was a bad spot to try this since the caller was a bit of a calling station, so that was interesting to learn.



Kind of neat to try stuff - it's going against my other goal of trying to learn how to play super tight in PSO, but I guess it's impossible to try everything at once. Definitely not the way to ensure optimal points in PSO, but since PSO is there to learn, sometimes it's a nice place to try stuff too I figure

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jun 04, 2011 at 04:14 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 04, 2011, 06:02 PM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Great work trying out new techniques, Sam. I think experimenting with different plays is a great way to improve, so it's great to see you taking time to improve your game. It looks to me like you've got a bit of the results-based thinking bug with the second hand, since that's not all that bad a shove, I think (when you know people will call you that wide, your EV from shoving goes WAY up, not down, so shoving there was not a mistake). That's actually a shove I'll sometimes make, and is a fantastic way to pick up chips. Going all-in might not have been necessary in the first hand since you were so deep; a smaller big bet should get the job done without risking your stack, but stomping on limpers is a fountain of free chips, so it's good to learn how to get them into your stack.

Nice hands to watch. Keep up the learning.
 
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Sat Jun 04, 2011, 09:09 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Great work trying out new techniques, Sam. I think experimenting with different plays is a great way to improve, so it's great to see you taking time to improve your game. It looks to me like you've got a bit of the results-based thinking bug with the second hand, since that's not all that bad a shove, I think (when you know people will call you that wide, your EV from shoving goes WAY up, not down, so shoving there was not a mistake). That's actually a shove I'll sometimes make, and is a fantastic way to pick up chips. Going all-in might not have been necessary in the first hand since you were so deep; a smaller big bet should get the job done without risking your stack, but stomping on limpers is a fountain of free chips, so it's good to learn how to get them into your stack.

Nice hands to watch. Keep up the learning.
Thx!!

I've never played A7o like that before ... except for the end result, I must say it turned out way better than I imagined it would. Like I guess there was always that fear that I'd shove and they'd call and they'd turn over A8o and I'd be in big trouble. But that fear probably had more to do with the fact that I didn't really have a concept of what type of hands are part of the range for a VPIP of 70%, otherwise I probably should have known the chances were more likely they'd have something more like they did.

I was kind of feeling like that hand could have been considered a bit of a bad beat. Like on the one hand I was a 67% favorite pre-flop. But on the other hand, I guess there's also that other way of dealing with calling stations of waiting for a solid hand and then shoving into the person everybody knows will likely call with about anything. But then again - even if I had let my stack dwindle down to half, and the two big stacks had had the chance to steal blinds for two more orbits, and I had shoved with AK instead of A7, the result would still have been the same, so I kind of like that idea of A7o being a value move (largely because of the extra-wide range of the limpers). New insight!

You could be right about having been able to get away with picking up the chips in the first one without having had to risk the entire stack. The big stacks didn't seem to be looking to stack off, they were just playing with a wider range. I'll have to test that one out next.

And also try looking for more free chips from limpers - fountain of free chips sounds pretty good!! I kind of avoid doing stuff like that in PSO because if you do to people one day, then the next day when the shoe's on the other foot they'll do it back. But I'll have to make a point of remembering to look for those spots outside of PSO ... it sounds like I've probably been missing out on a lot of opportunities to pick up free chips.

Hey thx so much for the feedback - yeah, it felt really good to try something new and have it go pretty well!!!
 
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my 2 cents - Sun Jun 05, 2011, 01:41 PM
(#9)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
read your original question and briefly scanned replies.

my thought is that you are putting yourself in a situation where you could be pushed off a hand that could turn into a nice big pot hand in a multi way pot. If I decided to play this hand based on my expectations of what the rest of the pre-flop action is likely to be if I limp along ..... I am much more likely to limp with this hand...... however if I think this is an opportunity to steal a pot preflop - I am much more likely to do it with a hand that would be in my usually fold range, making for an easy fold if 4 bet, 7-2 0ff for example.
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 02:47 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
read your original question and briefly scanned replies.

my thought is that you are putting yourself in a situation where you could be pushed off a hand that could turn into a nice big pot hand in a multi way pot. If I decided to play this hand based on my expectations of what the rest of the pre-flop action is likely to be if I limp along ..... I am much more likely to limp with this hand...... however if I think this is an opportunity to steal a pot preflop - I am much more likely to do it with a hand that would be in my usually fold range, making for an easy fold if 4 bet, 7-2 0ff for example.
Yeah, I was thinking about that aspect of the way I was playing hands like my ATo - like if you have a decent hand, possibly even the best hand out of the bunch, then isn't there perhaps that chance to extract more value by playing it for value rather than 'wasting' it by just stealing blinds. Otherwise it's no better than 72o, like there'd be the option of actually playing the ATo and saving the 'squeeze' for the 72o.

Hopefully I'll get to that place one day where I have a good enough read on people to feel like my 72o will work the way I want it to - then I guess it'll be a true squeeze play I guess the main reason I wasn't too keen on playing the ATo for value was because there were already 2 people in the pot, as well as the blinds to come, and 2 of the 4 big stacks were fairly loose. And since my stack was 1/3 the size of theirs, if I raised and got called and they cbet and I missed the flop, I'd have had to fold and blinds were about to go up. Also, if I had raised from the button and got called from the bb and they led out with a raise post-flop after an A hit, I wouldn't know where I stood in terms of my kicker. But that's all what-ifs. I guess there was the chance maybe they'd fold. Or if they called, and the A flopped and they all checked and folded after I raised then I could have made more.

Rest of the month in PSO, probably I'm going to practice trying to play tight though, so probably that means folding the ATo outright and waiting for AA. Even that takes practice, discipline (at least for me)

So much to learn, but lots of fun
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 07:10 PM
(#11)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Hey Sam - My answer was actually intended for PP's question.

As for your first two hands - The Ace ten - that was just a huge over bet that risked too many chips for the money in the pot - you are only getting called when you are beat. (at least by thinking players) - you could have taken that pot with far less risk.

The ace seven - once the money is in the blind - its no longer yours - so being in the bb i probably take the free flop there
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 07:18 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
Hey Sam - My answer was actually intended for PP's question.

As for your first two hands - The Ace ten - that was just a huge over bet that risked too many chips for the money in the pot - you are only getting called when you are beat. (at least by thinking players) - you could have taken that pot with far less risk.

The ace seven - once the money is in the blind - its no longer yours - so being in the bb i probably take the free flop there
Sorry for answering then ... it just sounded like you had a lot of experience in squeeze plays. But it doesn't sound like you're very fond of them?

(LIke the whole premise of the squeeze play is that you're depending on your reads and not your cards - ie you shove because you've read that others are weak, not because you think that you're ATo might be best. You don't care. And again, with the A7o - the squeeze is about the other players, not the cards. My hand didn't matter.)

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jun 05, 2011 at 07:27 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 08:36 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
however if I think this is an opportunity to steal a pot preflop - I am much more likely to do it with a hand that would be in my usually fold range, making for an easy fold if 4 bet, 7-2 0ff for example.
That's an interesting point. I like to pick hands that have some pot equity and potential to hit, in case I get called. I think that's the better route if I'm against people who like calling and tend not to raise/fold, but in that case, I probably shouldn't be squeezing to begin with. The different applications of semibluff squeezes and pure bluff squeezes is an interesting strategic concept.
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 09:54 PM
(#14)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
No offense intended Sam - just wanted to clarify what I was talking about. The other point worth mentioning - is that I am mainly thinking about deep stack play primarily in ring game, where implied odds are a greater motivator than the survival aspect of tournament play.

To further clarify Sam: I looked at the hands again - In the ace ten situation - a raise to 250 (3xbb+1bbfor each limper) would have still left you with 1000 chips and the BBat 50 so 20 BB and room to play.

The second hand is more or less the same thing since you are at 20bb in that hand as well, and as I said basically a free flop.

and both of these are in tourny situations where survival is key.
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 10:06 PM
(#15)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
That's an interesting point. I like to pick hands that have some pot equity and potential to hit, in case I get called. I think that's the better route if I'm against people who like calling and tend not to raise/fold, but in that case, I probably shouldn't be squeezing to begin with. The different applications of semibluff squeezes and pure bluff squeezes is an interesting strategic concept.
It is the potential to hit - and get paid off (deep stack ring play) that is the very reason to not blow opponents out of a hand pre-flop. Thus it would be better to flat with queen jack and squeeze with queen 2 -
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 10:10 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
No offense intended Sam - just wanted to clarify what I was talking about. The other point worth mentioning - is that I am mainly thinking about deep stack play primarily in ring game, where implied odds are a greater motivator than the survival aspect of tournament play.

To further clarify Sam: I looked at the hands again - In the ace ten situation - a raise to 250 (3xbb+1bbfor each limper) would have still left you with 1000 chips and the BBat 50 so 20 BB and room to play.

The second hand is more or less the same thing since you are at 20bb in that hand as well, and as I said basically a free flop.

and both of these are in tourny situations where survival is key.
Astro, you keep looking at my cards!! Just pretend they're not there, and then look at the players
 

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