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Qh 9c with button 10/20 play money limit

Qh 9c with button 10/20 play money limit - Wed May 25, 2011, 02:11 AM
4153holliday's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 4
Hey all, first I'd just like to say I'm super new to Poker, and as such my questions are going to be pretty n00bish for a while. But I'd really like to thank all of you who do the hand analyzing, I think it's an awesome resource and it makes me feel a bit less intimidated by the game. Please feel free to critique everything I need to learn.

Anyway, on to the hand.

My thought process during the hand.

Pre flop I'm thinking Q9 offsuit is a pretty decent hand with the button, so I decide to at least see the flop, one of the things I need to get better at I feel is understanding the positioning pre and post flop, also, and I don't know if this is possible but I'd like to be able to have an idea in limit hold em of how much it could cost me to get to see the next draw.

Flop (Spoiler so Highlight text to read)
I felt pretty good about the flop, I got a possible flush/strait flush and 2nd pair, but I really didn't know what to do about it, one of the things I need to get better at is quickly reading the cards so I know what I have, and have a shot at and I definitely need to get better at odds and outs.

Anyway, I check and then call because I feel like while I have the possibility of something big I don't actually have it yet so I feel it's better to play a bit conservatively since I only have 2nd pair with a decent kicker for sure at this moment.

Turn (Highlight to read)
Once the duece comes up on the turn and I haven't gotten the flush/strait flush I start to lose it and just call/call wanting to get to the river as quick as possible. This and the river is why I feel so bad about how I played this hand.

River (Highlight to read)
This I feel was my huge mistake, not folding here. I mean the turn wasn't great, but I basically just donated an extra 40 chips to the guy. Also a small part of that is my lack of understanding about how betting rounds work. That I need to work on. But no excuse, I should have folded. (I think)
Wed May 25, 2011, 09:02 AM
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
you have second pair, with a weak flush draw... any 10 J Q A of clubs beats you... firstly raise the button to chase away weaker hands... its play money so thats hard to do lol.. raise with your pair dont call, see where you are at after the raise... fold to the reraise, someone has the K or a better flush draw... luckily it was limit and you got away with a marginal loss.. very wet board that will lead you into deep waters and drown you
Wed May 25, 2011, 09:03 AM
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
and welcome to the forums good luck developing your game, there are a lot of very sharp people here that are more than willing to help you
Wed May 25, 2011, 02:43 PM
4153holliday's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 4
Thanks for the help, I guess I'm getting ahead of myself. My main focus right now is just trying to get better at deciding what to fold and what to keep. Take it one step at a time as it were.
Wed May 25, 2011, 02:50 PM
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
That hand is usually an auto fold... except on the button, use your position... a little harder to do though in limit pokers
Wed May 25, 2011, 02:55 PM
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
One of the most important things you'll learn is to have a plan when you enter a pot.

You have to ask yourself what you need to hit on the flop to continue. Hitting one pair with Q9 is not the most ideal situation, especially in limit where everyone has the odds to stay in the hand.

Because of that, I'm probably folding this preflop. Limping behind on the button isn't the worst play though, as you're last to act after the flop and can see not only what cards come on the flop, but what the action is like by the other players.

My advice for you as a newer player is to just keep it simple for right now. Read as much as you can, watch as many videos as you can, catch some of Dave's (TheLangolier) live training whenever possible, and just keep learning. And also remember that a lot of players don't take play money seriously, so don't get discouraged if they suck out on you. It's going to happen, just focus on making correct decisions and don't become results oriented.

Good luck!
Fri May 27, 2011, 01:18 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Since you are "new", Im not really going to analyze your play here.
First, because you are too new to really "get" a lot of the concepts without a LOT of "back ground" info (not that long posts have detered me before! )
Second, because "mistakes" are natural at the start of your "poker journey". As such, who needs to hear all the things they "screwed up!", right?

Instead, let me throw out a couple of "concepts" about Limit Hold 'em, and YOU try to analyze your play, ok?

Here goes:

1) The more players in a hand, the higher the hand it will take (generally) to win.

Think about this one a second:
If you had JJ, there is about a 57% chance an overcard to your J comes on the flop.
Since your hand is STRONG (only AA/KK/QQ are "better", and only AK/AQ/KQ are a "race"), the chance is good you hold the BEST hand even if everyone came along, right?
But if there is little chance of getting to the flop heads up or 3 Way, when an overcard DOES flop (a bit over half the time), doesn't that increase the chance one of your opponents has hit that overcard?

In limit, it is unlikely as well that good DRAWS will fold to a single bet; "good draws" = 8 or 9 out draws (like ooe straight draws or flush draw), so if those are present, you "big" pair loses strength in multi-way pots...right?

Ok, next...

2) When you elect to ENTER the pot pre-flop "voluntarily" (outside the BB), know what you "expect" to see on the flop.

Again, consider this one:
ANY hand can potentially flop a "monster". 72o could flop 777, right? But is that likely?
Before you enter a pot, you must be aware of what you are likely to flop, and act on that, not on what you MIGHT flop. If you are not doing this, relying on what is likely, then you are plaiyng to get lucky, not palying good poker.

A "good" hand on the flop is generally top pair, with a good kicker, right? One pair is GENERALLY what you "expect" to see (or should expect to see) on most flops; if you expect jsut 1 pair, that one should have a good chance of being TOP PAIR, right? Why...
Lesser hands can get you into "trouble", especially if you lack information that you'd get from playing "in position".

The lower your highest card is, the less likely you will be to hold top pair if you do flop a pair (BTW: un-paired cards will only flop a pair aobut 1/3rd the time).
Obviously, the lower your kicker is, the less likely you will be to hold a "good" top pair if you do hit, such as on an A hi flop when you hld A4o.

If you start with a paired hand, the "quality" of that hand will generally reside in its chance to be an OVER-Pair to the board on the flop; obviously, the smaller your pair, the less chance of this happening. If you tend to enter with hands that will make large 1 pair hands, you are "playing for pairs".

3) If you are not entering on "Big" hands to play for pairs, you must understand how to play DRAWING HANDS.

Now you may also "know" that there ARE times to play hands like 22 or 33 (almost no chance to be an over pair), or 78s/T9s (unlikely to flop top pair/good kicker). These hands are called DRAWING HANDS. Drawing hands rely for their "strength" not on their intrinsic "value", but on certain flop cards coming.

NOTE: Even hands like AK/AQ are, essentially, "drawing hands" (as are any un-paired pre-flop holding), since in limit poker you generally cannot exert enough "pressure" on the pot to get a lot of folds (in most cases, higher limit games tend to be a bit different). Since these bigger drawing hands tend to make just 1 pair when they hit though (and since there is a chance that even unpaired they will be good), they tend to be more "playing for paor" type hands.

The key thing to remember with drawing hands of any type is that you generally are playing to "hit"; if you do not hit your hand is usually worthless.

What this means is that you (usually) want to enter a pot with a drawing hand ONLY:

A) When you have more than 1 person to pay you off (multi-way pot).
This is so because drawing hands tend to make straights or flushes or sets, and are strong enough (if they do hit) to be good in multi way pots.
The extra people in the hand you paly aainst will tend to off-set the times you enter, do not flop a draw (or not not hit your draw), and you have to fold.

B) When you are IN POSITION.
This is so because you have more information upon which to base your decisions.
Since you will generally be "chasing" when you flop a draw, you MUST be able to know how much you are likely to have to invest to "get there", AND how much you are likely to win if you do get there. You only have a good idea of this with position.

C) When you can play the drawing hand CHEAPLY.
If there are raises and re-raises, and/or calls in front of you, you are not seeing the flop "cheaply". Essentially, when you must call (or raise) MULTIPLE BETS in a limit game to see the flop, the chances that the pot will check around to you on the flop is very low. This means even if you do flop a good straight or flush draw, you are then going to have to pay MORE to try hitting it.

With drawing hands you do NOT want to pay a large "price" in terms of multiple bets because you will tend to only hit (by the river) about 1/3rd of the time if you flop an 8 or 9 out draw.


To sum up thoughts about start hands, you must be aware of the 3 "facets" of hold 'em start hand VALUE, and the ways to leverage those facets. The facets are:

A) High card/pair value. (playing for pairs). Trying to "set mine" small pocket pairs fits in here.
These tend to flop 1 pair hands, or "sets". #note: with a pocket pair your chance of flopping a set is about 1 in 8.5. you will flop 1 pair aobut 1 time in 3.

B) Suited value. (2 of the same suit)
These tend to flop flush DRAWS. You will flop a flush draw about 1 in 8 times, and you will only hit that draw about 35% of the time by the river.

C) Connected value (this is how close together the cards are. 67 are connected, 68 are 1 gap connectors, 85 are 2 gappers, and 84 are 3 gappers, above 3 "gaps", there is no connected value, since you cannot use both your cards to make a straight).
These tend to flop straight draws, with connectors flopping the 8 out draw most often, and 3 gappers least often.
Connected flop 8 out draws about 1 in 9.5, 1 gappers about 1 in 11.5, and 2 or 3 gappers even less often.

You really want to leverage at least 2 of these facets whenever you enter a pot. The MORE value each facet carries too, the better.

AK is a very strong "high card" value hand, but it is slightly stronger if it is suited. The connected value is relatively small though.

KJs is marginal for high card value (it may flop top pair, but will never have top pair/top kicker on the flop), it has only 1 gapped connected value, but it does have pretty decent suited value.

88 has very little high card value, but if it does flop a set, that changes radically. It has no suited, nor connected value. This means you usually want to play this to "set mine", me4aning that if you do not flop a set, you are most often throwing this away.

As an excercise for you, describe the "value" facets, and how strong each facet is, of the following start hands:

Ah 4d
Ad Qc
Ac Tc

3h 3d
Kh Kd
As Ac

7h 8s
6h 8d
6h 8h
Jd Tc
Jd Tc

See this for a list of odds: http://www.tworags.com/index.php?ACT...odo=view&ID=78

And to finish this "mega-post", a couple of final thoughts:

In hold em, especially micro and free play limit with a lot of passive paly and multi-way pots, you must be aware of the nut hand at all times.
This is because YOUR HAND is only "good" relative to its strength agaisnt the nut hand.
A straight is a pretty good hand, right?
But if the board is 6c 6d 5c 4c 3c, if you hold Ah7s, is your straight REALLY that good?

5) The more people there are in the hand, the harder it is to get them all to fold.
This means bluff less often, and also tend to bet/call only on stronger holdings.
This also means the more people who stay round, the less likely it is that NO ONE has a decently solid hand.
If there is little or no chance everyone will fold to you,then you will have to show down a hand. The only way you will win in that case is by holding the best hand.
This means your hand must be stronger, right?

6) OVER CALLING, especially of a raise, is often bad news without a very good hand.
Over calling is when you call a raise AFTER at least 1 other player has done so.
The more action there is in front of you (raises, and callers of raises), the stronger your hand needs to be to have a decent shot at winning.
If you are drawing, the draw you are playing must be to a nut or very near nut hand, to be worth playing for an over call.
Again, if you have 1 out to a stright flush, you really "expect" to make a flush and not the straight flush, right?
Make sure if you over call, you know what you can expect.


I know this is a lot.
Realistically though, if you read this, and use it to analyze your own hand here, I think you will be better able to "see" what others might post.
It may not be (strictly speaking) what you asked for here, or what you expected, but there is an old saying that might describe what Im trying to do:

"Give a man a fish, and he eats today. TEACH a man to fish, and he will eat every day."

These concepts give you a start to looking at your own play, and potentially changing some things you may be doing. Since I'm putting the onus of analyzing your own play back on YOU, your conclusions will be much more relateable to you.

After you've gone thru this, and analyzed your own paly here, Id love to see what YOU think aobut your play in this hand.

...and if you have any questions, please post 'em!

I can;t wait...

Last edited by JDean; Fri May 27, 2011 at 01:31 AM..

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