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88 shove.

 
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88 shove. - Tue May 31, 2011, 04:51 AM
(#1)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 05:04 AM
(#2)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
My logic, to the above hand.

I'm in a 27 player, $15 buy in tournament, and the top four players receive payouts. I get to the final table, I'm in the cutoff and Sele11 limps in. I figure, 88 isn't that strong of a hand to be raising, so I limp. Flop comes, rainbow. UTG bets min, sete11 calls, and the action is on me. My thought process was that Kelly'sducks has been playing very loose, calling a shove with any hand, so I wasn't too worried about her. I thought sete would have low pair, or some overcards perhaps. In general I thought that I had a wide range of his hands beat, based on his limp. The blinds would increase to 150/300 in 5 min and If I was to fold, I would have to find a hand to shove with. So instead I decided to shove here, considering all the above and the fact that I have a straight draw.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 05:32 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
88 is a very strong hand to be raising with. When somebody limps, and there are antes, you're in a dream scenario for your 88. This is the typical 'pounding on limpers' scenario, where you should make a raise to something around four, five, or six big blinds. You're almost always going to have a better hand than the first limper, and you want to make sure that someone limping behind you doesn't hit a better pair than you with Jx or some bad hand like that, that wouldn't be in the hand if you raise.

On the flop, there was a bet and a call. Sure, you have a draw, but it will get there less that one third of the time, and one of the reasons the guys acting in front of you are putting money in the pot might be because they also have straight draws (which means your chances of hitting one are less likely, and if you do, you might only chop the pot), or because one or both of them already have a straight. Moreover, in my experience, you're not going to get both of these guys to fold often enough to make getting it in here profitable. Since going all-in here is a bluff that won't work often enough to make you money, you should just fold on the flop, as played. If you had raised preflop, however, it would be a different story. Getting the money in would actually be a profitable course of action.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 10:05 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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I think you need to be raising preflop with it, instead of limping. That way you can get rid of the players with any 2 broadway draws or J9 (that can hit a pair). On the flop, especially with limping, there are alot of hands that you're behind and due to that, don't really recommend the shove. Yes, you have a pair with an open-ended str8 draw, but you could still very easily be behind. I'd wait to shove until I hit the straight, as you're not ITM yet and only want to be putting your tourney life on the line with the best hand.

If you're going to shove with it, I'd rather see you do it preflop, instead of letting someone see a flop where you could be behind.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 10:15 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
You started out with a limp. Never go broke in a limped pot.

Fact is, the UTG player folded pre. It was the BB who led, and they led for 2BB, not a min bet; also, that 2BB bet was just under half the pot. Those things together mean a totally different thing that a min bet...

Like:

When that just under half pot bet gets flat called, you have to REALLY start worrying that someone limped in on AT/KT. Your 88 2nd pr. to the board, with the ooe straight draw, simply isn't strong enough to stand 3 away the money; not off a 18BB start stack after you limp into the pot.

If you know the BB will tend to lead light, ok your bet isn't TERRIBLE to freeze out a draw. Denying odds by coming over that 400 lead to around 1100 or 1200 to go is pretty much committing you anyway. The problem is that you were over-shoving the caller, not simply playing against the loose BB.

This was probably a spot to maybe flat call, and put yourself about 15% into the pot (1/6th of your start stack) in total for a chance to see that turn kinda cheaply.

Last edited by JDean; Tue May 31, 2011 at 10:17 AM..
 
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Thu Jun 02, 2011, 02:19 AM
(#6)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
Alright, say I was to raise 4bb- 800. That's about 25% of my stack, and then the limper shoves, should I call this or fold? The pot would be 4470 and my stack would be 2830, so I would be getting 1.5 to 1.
 
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Thu Jun 02, 2011, 02:41 AM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Well, you're gonna need to be at least 40% against his shoving range, and that's not even counting $EV vs. cEV disparity. Are you?
 
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Thu Jun 02, 2011, 04:41 AM
(#8)
andrei17731's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 160
Well I would say that we would be shoving the standard 10% of hands- any pair, AT+. So at best I would have 50%.

I don't understand the $EV vs. cEV? I know what EV is and how to calculate it but comparing the two, I've never seen that.
 

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