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Calling all-in with 22 preflop

 
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Calling all-in with 22 preflop - Tue May 31, 2011, 06:30 PM
(#1)
Comisar's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 7
What do you think about this call ? I supposed that my opponent doesn`t have a monster hand as he was short stacked and he will shove with any decent hand, like he did with A10o. I called with the hope of trips or that he will miss.
 
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1 question, with some thoughts - Tue May 31, 2011, 09:49 PM
(#2)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
You said you were hoping to hit trips or that he will miss... But in an all in situation, all of that doesn't really matter, as there's no play post flop. Therefore, you just have to know the odds of your hand against different ranges.

I could argue that In the situation you showed, with 1 person already raising and a couple of players still in the hand his range would be stronger...but,

I'll assume you were right and his range was even worse: 100% (a random hand).

Here's a number I find sobering: 22 against a random hand (range-100%) - 50.33% equity!

Basically, you're crushed against all other pairs and have only a bit more than 50% against almost all other hands (except ... which are very rare in this position, compared with other hands)


So my question, which would determine my response to your action:

Were you, at the time, willing to play a true coin flip at best if you were right, or being crushed if you were wrong about his hand and are against another pair?

If not, then I guess my opinion doesn't matter... and you're labeling it wrong yourself.


If you did think that, then my own personal opinion is that it must be wrong... since even in the extreme case where we're against an opponent whose optimal range REALLY is to push with any two cards, It's still often wrong to call with 22. That's why knowing the ICM is so important in tournaments.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 11:29 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
with 16 BB, it's ok if you can get in cheap to see if you can hit trips, but to call an all in (especially if this is a league game, where + points is mandatory), it's too early to call an all-in for a coin flip at best. Put the 150 in, but with an opponent shoving, you're better off letting those chips go and finding a better situation to get your chips into.
Any hand that pushes there should at best case for you have 2 over cards (puts you in a coin flip), or worst case (overpair). If they have the over pair, you've got 2 outs... only if they don't hit one of their 2 outs for a set.

With basically the worst hand they'd push with putting you in a coin flip, you're better off waiting for a hand where you know you're ahead, to put your chips in.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 11:39 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
with 16 BB, it's ok if you can get in cheap to see if you can hit trips
This isn't really a good idea, because you're going to get raised out of the pot at least 25% of the time (which is a conservative estimate), and because even if you do hit your set, you're looking to double up 16BB at best, which isn't exactly fantastic in the implied odds department. If you had to put in 1/16th of your stack in to see a flop and you were closing the action, then there would be a pretty good case for setmining. But not here. This is a bet (not limp) or a fold.

As played, your call wasn't actually all that bad, because of the pot odds you were getting and the logic that this guy should be shoving way wider that AK and higher pocket pairs. But if you're going to play, open for a raise- it adds money to your stack. Google 'fold equity'. If you had opened for a raise to begin with, you'd be making more money in the long run.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Tue May 31, 2011 at 11:45 PM..
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 11:52 PM
(#5)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
For me this decision comes down to pot odds, equity, and hand ranges. If my equity vs my opponents range is as good or greater than the pot odds I make the call.

Our pot odds here are 1,533:1,008 or aprox 1.5:1, so in order for this call to be profitable we need at least 40% equity. With 22 vs ATo we have 51.598% equity, so being case specific this was a +EV call.

Lets assume that ATo was the bottom of this players shove range, so were putting him on a range of 22+,ATs+,ATo+ our equity drops to 34.078%, not close to the 40% we need to profitably call.

We cant profitably call with 22 vs our opponents range unless he is shoving at least 16.7% of his hands, at that point our equity is 40.061% IF he is shoving 16.7% his range is something like 22+,A5s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A8o+,KQo, at this point in the tournament with 7BB I don't think this guy is shoving that wide, so I would lay down 22.
 
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Tue May 31, 2011, 11:59 PM
(#6)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
I agree with Panicky, open limping from EP or MP on 16bb's hoping to hit a set is not a good play. I would raise or fold this hand myself.
 
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Wed Jun 01, 2011, 01:40 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
Dont open limp!!
If you learn any thing from this hand,dont be that guy.
You think you are being tricky but you will not get paid off as you move up playing like that.

22 is a fold with 3 short stacks just waiting to shove a weak ace or king and flipping for a good portion of your stack is not a good idea,especially with the blinds still to hit you.
 
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Wed Jun 01, 2011, 02:44 AM
(#8)
Comisar's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks for your advices! I can learn alot from you guys. GJ!
 
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to PaidInFull6 - Wed Jun 01, 2011, 11:38 AM
(#9)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Actually it's wrong to make decisions based on normal EV calculations (hand ranges + odds + pot odds), since in SNGs, unlike cash games, normal +EV decisions (+EV in chips) are often -EV when it comes ot $. It's a mathematical issue in SNGs... the chips you lose are worth more than the chips you gain, so many +EV decisions become -$EV in the tournament.

That usually makes nearly ALL close +EV decisions wrong ones and -EV$ in tournaments. That's what the ICM was created for.

So EVEN if it's a +EV concerning the chips, it's just a -$EV move to call here.
 
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Wed Jun 01, 2011, 02:25 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This is an MTT, not a sit'n'go.
 

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