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And then THIS happens!

 
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And then THIS happens! - Sun Jun 05, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#1)
OMGCBF's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 48
so following on from a good read I had this a few hands later.

villain raises to 4x UTG.

I toss it back and forth whether to call with 88, decide I will but only looking to hit a favourable flop.

flop brings my 8 (YAY!) along with a 9 and J with a flush draw (Ah Crap).

villain leads out, I decide I have to call because I'm ahead of at least half his range.

Turn brings the Tc, completing both the straight and the flush. He leads out again. I call one more street thinking there's 9 outs to a boat and he might just slow down on the river if he's not got the monster I suspect he does.

Alas river is a complete brick, and he fires a third barrel, at this point I'm figuring it has to be AK or AQ clubs and fold.

Question is, should I have gotten out earlier?

Thanks

 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 03:51 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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with a mid pair, I'd have mucked preflop after UTG raises to 4BB. If you're going to play the hand, you basically have to see the last 2 cards after the flop, as you do have a set..... BUT.... with that kind of raise preflop, you could still be behind, because they could just as easily as AK clubs, have JJ.
 
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Sun Jun 05, 2011, 04:05 PM
(#3)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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Good fold on that dripping board... if it wasnt so flushy I would be calling...set over set happens, but not often enough to be -EV. I dont mind the opening call, you have a deep stack, you said you will fold if you dont hit..
myself I am shipping it when i hit that set... on a drier board tho I did not see your earlier post so I might be missing something on your read
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 01:39 PM
(#4)
jf70's Avatar
Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
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I would definitely have raised on the flop, and size it to make pot odds such that flush and straight draw calls are not equitable.

Apart from that... should have thrown the turn away; any one of 8 cards to the straight plus the flush possibility make playing that board insane.
 
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Tue Jun 07, 2011, 10:33 PM
(#5)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
with a mid pair, I'd have mucked preflop after UTG raises to 4BB. If you're going to play the hand, you basically have to see the last 2 cards after the flop, as you do have a set..... BUT.... with that kind of raise preflop, you could still be behind, because they could just as easily as AK clubs, have JJ.

With "THAT" kind of a raise you would have mucked preflop? Could you please elaborate what "that kind" means?

Is it the size of the raise? it's quite normal. Although most would raise to ~3BB, many players open raise to 4BB. Actually, in these stakes, some training sites (such as ******************, for instance) actually recommend it.

Is it the position the raise came from? that would seem strange, as it would mean to not play a middle pair vs. early position raisers.... which seems a bit strange to me...


So, in case I misunderstood, could you please elaborate on why exactly you would have mucked preflop?
 
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Tue Jun 07, 2011, 11:48 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
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not just that the raise came from early position, but if you want to setmine, you need enough people in the pot to make the odds worth it.
 
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multi way only? - Thu Jun 09, 2011, 08:25 PM
(#7)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
not just that the raise came from early position, but if you want to setmine, you need enough people in the pot to make the odds worth it.
I see, thanks for clarifying your take on this...

It seems poker pros are of very different minds about set-mining.


What I've seen and read so far by other pros (again, on other forums, other hand evaluations, other articles, other sites (such as ******************, but not only, that's just an example), that set-mining is fine against a single raise, even if you'd prefer a few, as long as the effective stack size is large enough compared with the raise
(opinions here differed between 20+ and 25+ the size of the raise)


So do you recommend to not set mine at all against only a single opponent from early position, regardless of stack sizes? What scenario would make that playable in your eyes?


Sorry for all the questions but I'm a curious soul trying to learn as much as I can...and opinions of experienced players do interest me quite a bit
 
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Thu Jun 09, 2011, 08:46 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
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If you do it against one opponent from early, you want to be in a position where you can get away from the pot easily if need be (if you don't hit or you see a board like this hand, that has lots of possibilities where you're beat).

A raise to 4BB from early position will normally mean either a mid/high pair, or a suited broadway draw. With only having 88, if you don't get an 8 on the flop..... there's a good chance that the flop will have an overcard that they could pair to be ahead of you. With the flop that happened, they could easily already have the straight... which means you have to pair the board to win. The turn almost guarantees them the straight. You also could be behind a set of jacks.

What you don't want to do is to pot commit yourself into a hand where you know you can easily be beat.

It's personal preference, but I'd like to have alot bigger stack or alot smaller stack, before I'm trying to play it against only 1 opponent (if I had no reads on them).... probably in the range of 40-50, instead of 20-25.... or in the case of the smaller stack, pushing immediately.
 
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Ok now it's a bit clearer:) - Sat Jun 11, 2011, 01:40 PM
(#9)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
...
...
A raise to 4BB from early position will normally mean either a mid/high pair, or a suited broadway draw.

...

What you don't want to do is to pot commit yourself into a hand where you know you can easily be beat.

It's personal preference, but I'd like to have alot bigger stack or alot smaller stack, before I'm trying to play it against only 1 opponent (if I had no reads on them).... probably in the range of 40-50, instead of 20-25.... or in the case of the smaller stack, pushing immediately.

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on this matter.

I see. So you believe the fold equity + hand equity you have with 88 with small stacks can be sufficient sometimes in these scenarios? hmmm I guess with some tight players the odds of them having AK/AQ/(perhaps KQ) combined with the odds of them folding TT to a shove-reraise gives you good odds here. Never thought of it that way...

(well, I guess a tight player would probably fold AQ or KQ often here...)


The only thing I still have an issue with is your continued mentioning of the "4 BB raise from early position"... the preflop open raise size says almost nothing nowadays at micro/low stakes since players have been told (and still told and taught) to use a constant raise size for open raising no matter their cards... so many articles/videos that preach that (usually by other pros).

Other than that, your thoughts on this matter were really enlightening

Thanks!

Last edited by Andromedan11; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 01:43 PM..
 

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