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Good betting?

 
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Good betting? - Mon Jun 06, 2011, 03:48 PM
(#1)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489


So I've decided to knuckle down with regards to my betting, and would like input on this hand. three betted to hopefully force out A, K, Q & J rags. On turn, betted 100 to test waters. By now, I'm certainly putting ascendant on jack pair, called in hopes of an Ace or Queen. His all in was an easy to take hint.

Needless to say, hand cost me more than i would of liked.
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 04:06 PM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Is this PSO? A few points then.

You're raising out of position and if it is PSO a 3x raise is not going to deter calling stations, especially broadway calling stations. It is really early in the tourney, you have a healthy stack and I would have just checked.

You hit nothing on the flop and you have a two outer for the straight... time to hit the fold button. His reraise on the turn indicates a str, I personally ranged him as broadway cards, maybe KQ, possibly suited and you must know you were throwing money away by reraising him.

You have to fold strong hands when they do not hit, simple to say but not easy to do i know.

Cheers,

TC

Oh and btw the continuation bet post flop is too weak if you want to represent that you have a high pair or that you have hit the board.

Last edited by topthecat; Mon Jun 06, 2011 at 04:26 PM..
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 04:45 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Your preflop bet is too small to force anybody out. It's actually not a 3bet since nobody 2bet. What you're really doing is making an expensive limp, because very rarely will anybody fold to such a small bet. The convention is to bet 3BB with an extra BB added for every limper, and I like to add an extra BB when I'm in the SB or BB to encourage folds, because I'm out of position if the hand gets to a flop. So, a good bet here would have been upwards of T250.

On the flop, your micro-bet does the same thing as your preflop micro-bet- it's an expensive check or a really cheap bluff. Even people who flopped air have odds to call if they flopped good air. If you're intending the bet to be an expensive check, my advice is to make a cheaper check and just not put money in the pot. If it's a bluff, then good effort, but it probably won't work enough to be profitable in a four-way pot. So the best road there would probably be a check/fold.

On the turn, same deal. The bet was just as pointless as the flop bet, and given that the flop bet was called, the turn bet is even more pointless, because anybody who called a flop 1/6th bet is not folding to a turn 1/9th bet, because they either have a hand, or they have odds to draw. You're also projecting weakness on multiple betting rounds, so you're asking to get raised. What's more, you're projecting weakness while you're actually weak. That's not a good idea.

Min-3betting the turn is basically the same as the last two paragraphs. Your bets are becoming decreasingly likely to force a fold, and although you might think you're showing lots of strength, this guy has told you three times already that he doesn't want to go away, so bluffing isn't likely to work, and your own drawing odds are pretty weak.

Aggression is good in poker, but aggression is not just a function of the frequency with which you bet. It's also important to make powerful folds, and when you do bet, to size it correctly. Hope this helps!
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 04:48 PM
(#4)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
You assume PSO correctly. Did feel like a twat for not folding it sooner.

As for pre flop bets, in position, what's the best sort of bet for picture/picture? 5x,6x,7x?
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 05:07 PM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Well since it is PSO I really am looking at a check with two limpers and AQ off in the big blind.

In a normal MTT, as Panicky says, you are looking at a 3-400 chip bet. Even then though, it is a vulnerable hand out of position and the blinds are small. If you miss the flop as you did it is either fold or a half pot sized bet to represent a high pair or even a set in a normal MTT.

In PSO it is a different matter, if you play it like a normal MTT, you are likely to get called, even with strong betting. To continue with hands such as AK, AQ, AJ, A10 after the flop in PSO you have to have some part of the board. The other tactic is to shove preflop, if you have a tight image, or a reasonable stack, the calling stations will fold to that play, but then you get no value out of your premium hand with the blinds so low.

The most important advice though is to have reads on your opponents, their range and their betting and folding patterns.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 05:38 PM
(#6)
FarrahnsMom's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 242
did u say twat omg lmao i have been warned several times for alot less
 
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Mon Jun 06, 2011, 09:27 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
In a normal MTT, as Panicky says, you are looking at a 3-400 chip bet...

In PSO it is a different matter
True. My input assumes this is a regular-structure game, and not a PSO game. The principles I put up are good, but PSO games call for much tighter early-game play. Jamming or folding might be the optimal play if this is a PSO game.
 
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Tue Jun 07, 2011, 01:30 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
early in a tourney, a raise to 150 won't deter anyone from getting into the pot. Like the preflop raise, but don't expect people to drop much due to it.
If it was me, I check all the streets after the flop and muck to a bet... as you have nothing but ace high.
Trying to get someone to drop with small bets won't happen early in any tourney, let alone a pso tourney. Also, early in a tourney, especially a pso, is a bad time to try and bluff too... the calling stations will still be in the hand.
 
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Wed Jun 08, 2011, 03:35 PM
(#9)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarrahnsMom View Post
did u say twat omg lmao i have been warned several times for alot less
Yeah, got a warning for that! Given the context, I wouldn't say it was offensive, but someone might, so fair enough.

Thanks for advice folks. Going to be adding a similar PSO hand for analysis later, playing PSO game right now. Input would be appreciated.
 
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Wed Jun 08, 2011, 06:05 PM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Postflop your bet size should generally be related to the size of the pot. Most of the time a bet of less than 1/2 pot is super weak and basically just an expensive check as Panicky put it. Such small bets make drawing +EV. If I'm getting 5 to 1 on a 4 to 1 draw, I don't even NEED the implied odds from hitting to make drawing +EV!! Heck, I can easily draw to some overcards or a gutshot profitably with such a tiny flop bet. Or just call with air and bluff the turn.

If you're betting for value bet more and get paid better, if you're bluffing, bet more so you actually have some fold equity.
 
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Bet sizes - Thu Jun 09, 2011, 08:42 PM
(#11)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Preflop raises should usually be larger than usual the more limpers there are in the pot or you're actually giving good odds EVEN for good players to stay in the pot... Not to mention that on these free tourneys (assuming it's PSO) most players require quite a bit more convincing than that anyway... pot odds or not...


But I'm curious about the flop... you missed, and bet a 100 into a 600 pot... giving anyone 6:1 odds to call against 3 opponents...
Even against just 1, that raise has close to 0 fold equity in my opinion... 6 to 1....
So I don't really get the point of that raise. It's too small to be an effective bluff and you don't want to get more chips in with such a weak hand....
(of course, if you did have a strong hand, you'd want more chips than that too...)


As for (perhaps) planning to make a move later in the hand, you're up against 3 opponents... the odds of any of them to have actually hit something are quite high...



Then the turn comes... now a potential flush AND a potential straight hit, you're up against 2 opponents... risky, but if you wanted to scare them away in case they didn't hit.... You muse make a raise that gets the job done. giving your opponents 9 to 1 pot odds will virtually allow them to stay in the hand with whatever holdings and also invites them to make a play later with or without a hand since you're showing such weakness.
(if you had a real hand, you'd want more money in, and the raises aren't even close to scary...)


At least that's the way I see it.
 

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