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Good betting? II

 
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Good betting? II - Wed Jun 08, 2011, 04:15 PM
(#1)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489


First hand of PSO tourney (i know never risk your tourney life early on, explain as i go).

Pre flop: As per topthecat's advice from my last Good betting? thread, I flat called out of posistion in SB. Hand has been folded around, so when razorcro raises 4BB, I suspect an attempt at a blind steal or ace rag.

Flop: Hit an ace, and applied the 3BB bet + 1 limper theory, when I get re raised, I suspect ace rag or pocket pair, but not AA by way of gut feeling and as 2 aces were already accounted for, so i call.

Turn: bet 4x again to extract money I know he'll cough up, when he re raises, I shove to put of flush draw and to get as much value as possible if he calls.

Rest speaks for itself.
 
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Wed Jun 08, 2011, 04:58 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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unless you've got previous notes on that player, that's really, really risky. They could have very easily had you outkicked with AK or AQ. The raise to 4BB preflop would make me expect a pocket pair, AK, AQ, or suited A.
I like the 80 bet on the flop (won't scare anyone out, but will get chips into the pot), but their raise to 240 would then narrow my range on them to big A or set. If it was me, I'd more than likely muck to that raise thinking I was outkicked... plus it's early, so plenty of time to make the chips I lost back up.
The turn card would also be a scare card, because they could easily have a suited A of spades, which means that not only could they have you outkicked, they could easily have 9 outs at a flush ontop of it.

I just think it's too early to be risking all your chips, especially on the first hand of a PSO (where you'll get about -30 league pts)... unless you're 100% certain you have the best hand.
 
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Wed Jun 08, 2011, 05:57 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Just raise to like 3x or 4x preflop. Playing AJ out of position sucks.

There is no 3x+1per limper for the flop. You bet postflop based on the pot size and stack sizes.

I don't really like donk-betting this flop. I'd rather check-call and then bet the turn. (or check-call the turn if he's bluffy)

Your turn lead is awful. 7 of spades is not a scary card, and leading for 12% of the pot is super weak. If you're trying to induce a bluff why not just check? His bet (hardly a raise) is pretty small here, and since it's a raise it looks like he wants to keep you in the pot. If you think you're ahead here I think you should call, and plan on calling his river bluff if the flush draws don't complete.

Okay, now why would you ship it here? You want to get called by worse, fold out better, or get hands like KQ suited to give up their equity in the pot / make a mistake by calling you. You're clearly never making a better hand fold. What worse hands in his range can he call you with? AT, some other Ax, KK, QQ maybe? And some combo draws where you're not very far ahead. What worse hands in his range that can call you would he play this way? Playing KK, QQ this way would be totally retarded. I mean, yeah he might be terrible, but he's turning KK into a crappy bluff if he does this.

The turn bet is so small I think you have to call and plan on calling the river. If he shows up with AQ+ oh well.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 03:59 PM
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Deleted user
If you are really good at hand reading than calling the flop is ok but dont do this often.
You have to have a good gauge of what player you can do this with.
For exampleis play works best against players that think you are good and are decent themselves.Most players with any kind of Ace face hand would be raising or betting since you are out of position on the flop.So it disguises your hand but at the same time it is risky.
Reads are really important in these spots are just even recognizing the style of play can be a huge help.Some players bet draws and some dont and most of the time it is that cut and dry until you have made a play against them that shows you have a read.Depending on their level of play they may adapt or they may continue on playing the same way not realizing why you are stacking them each time.

So back to the hand the villian thinks his Ten is strong enough a.)because most people would have spewed to protect their hand say AK,AQ with a flush draw and b.)the flush did not hit on the turn.So he is left with thinking about you playing a flush draw with one card to go,unlikely or a combo of A7,A3,A2 and even more unlikely 23.So his thinking is the only hand that could beat him is AJ and a lot of players are scared to play that hand.
You limped preflop,you called flop and spewed river.Depending on timing tells as well it could make his call even more likely.Some people will snap allin on the turn out of position.
It means two things they had a made hand on the flop or they are not very good at picking bluff spots.Any one with A7 would not snap allin,they would ponder the best way to play it.

As for your play I dont hate it but I am not 100% of being ahead in this spot,so it has some risk.

If the player thinks you are a donk,than exploit that image and get him to get it in on the flop.
Donk betting does have its advantages if you know what you are up against.
You dont always have to have postion to make good plays.If you ever watch a maniac they tend to be out of position a lot of the time and forcing the player in position to think about calling.That is when position is meaningless.
 

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