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Going to try to use BR management for a change.

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Going to try to use BR management for a change. - Thu Jun 09, 2011, 04:45 AM
(#1)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
After depositing over and over and not winning I have decided that Im going to try using bankroll management. I just made a deposit of 21$ and Im going to see how long it lasts if I use BR management. Im not a very good player but Im going to try to get up to atleast $100,000. Anyways my plan is to start playing .02/.04 limit holdem and .10 sngs and mtts. Nothing else. I dont really understand BR management but I think I will only bring 5% of my roll to whatever game im playing. Whenever I have money to burn I will throw it into my account to add to my roll. My first goal is to get a big enough B.roll to move up to the $0.55 mttournaments and the $1.00 45sngs. Any suggestions advice would be great. Ive been playing poker for a while but I feel like im not getting better. I really want to advance and learn more and win more $$$!
 
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Thu Jun 09, 2011, 09:59 AM
(#2)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Br mgmt is probably the single biggest thing I learned here. Good post.
 
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Thu Jun 09, 2011, 10:45 AM
(#3)
jf70's Avatar
Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
BronzeStar
I'm sort of in the same stage as you, I guess, though I'm not losing money - I break even by winning HU SnGs and losing MTTs lol. 5% is okay, I suggest tracking your wins and losses in a simple spreadsheet (my worksheets are deposits/cashouts - overall bankroll (by day) - SnGs - MTTs - Cash games) to see where you're losing money and how. Also, go for the 0.25 90- and 45-player tourneys -- the 0.10 is turbo, so much higher variance.
To improve your game in general: save and review important hands; play a lot and make a lot of notes about hands even if you're not involved in them; always check what hand and why you fell out of a tournament; download PT3 or HEM and learn to use it; read poker books (lots of 'em!); observe higher-stakes tourney action (for example: choose one player and track their tourney experience, figure out their style, what they have when you don't see their cards and why they played the hands they did show the way they did); observe higher-stakes cash games; etc.

Dedication and discipline are the key to mastering anything; poker is no different. Discipline is particularly interesting. There is always a gap between someone's best play and worst play; it's your goal to always stay aware of how you're playing and know when to quit or move to play money.

Last piece of advice - don't keep depositing. Find a way you can make money, even with tiny margins, and expand from there. Heads up is usually a good place to start, because it's full of donks, and you also get exposed to a lot of different playing styles (all of which can be effectively countered). The key to HU is versatility.

Gl and hf,

JF
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 12:17 AM
(#4)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Thanks for your advice. I have a few questions for you tho. First of all I have no idea how to make a spreadsheet but its pretty much in my head where ive lost or won. So how do I make a spreadsheet? I dont want to jump into the .25c tournaments yet until I make cashes in the .10 360mans atleast half the time I play them. I dont want to use HUDs because I feel like its cheating but everyone is using them so I might just have to get with the program. Anyways how do you use these HUDs? WHere do I get one thats free? Can I still be a winning mtt player if I dont have one and learn how to use it?
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 12:22 AM
(#5)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
So ill give you some idea of my day yesterday. I started playing around the time I posted this and ended maybe 4 or 5 hours later. But I was on and off the comp because I have things I need to do around here. But anyways my first game I started with .40 on a .02/.04 limit game I lost that had to do something and my gf wanted to play so I sent her .50c and logged off. I came back maybe a half hour to an hour later and played the same thing but I think I started with .60c and then joined a few .10 tournaments. I dont know exactly how many but I only cashed in the facebook .10 tournament for15c. After that I continued playing the limit game. And then the .10 mtt with 50$ added popped up and pso so I closed the ring game. I lost the .10c 50$ added and fell asleep during pso. When I checked my cashier I had 20.01 so right now im down about .99cents.
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 07:19 PM
(#6)
jf70's Avatar
Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
BronzeStar
i've attached a spreadsheet you can start with, read all the notes on the third sheet before starting to use it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip bankroll template.zip (12.1 KB, 20 views)
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 08:57 PM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Okay I'm not going to give any advice past the mini-micro levels as I hadn't gotten to play above them when the rug got yanked out from under myself and the rest of the US players but I can tell you what worked for me (and also what I was going to try to incorporate and fully intend to IF we ever get back on here...).

I will say this as background--I only ever deposited once (for $10) and that was just to make it easier to establish myself with Stars so as to more easily cash out the money I thought I may win in August in PSO (which I did win--$1000). I never really needed to PLAY on that $10 as my BR was already solidly above that amount,so I consider myself a "freeroller",i.e. one who grinded out a BR without ever depositing. So the principles I adhered to will easily be within proper parameters for someone who deposited a small amount (like $21).

So here goes...

Step 1: PROPER MENTAL APPROACH

The prior deposits and any monies lost are immaterial to what you are trying to accomplish now so let them go. THEY NO LONGER EXIST. All that matters is what you do with THIS opportunity,not what you have done in the past. The ONLY thing that you did previously that matters,and all you should consider,is the mistakes you made then should be remembered and be your guide if you feel like doing the same things again when,not IF but WHEN,you hit the occasional rough patch and frustration sets in.

BR management becomes even more important when things aren't going well--resisting the temptation to try and move up a buy-in level (or more) beyond what you should be playing to try and recoup monies already lost. That is probably the single BIGGEST LEAK to be avoided in proper BR management.

Step 2: PROPER REALISTIC GOALS AND BUDGETING

Don't go into this with ideas like "Well if I double my BR this month then next month I can play this group of games instead of what I was playing...". That's not realistic. Now I'm not saying that if you improve your play that you CAN'T have months where you grow your roll in big leaps and bounds (and indeed double it or better) but those instances,if they indeed EVER happen,will be few and far between. Making that a goal will only lead to frustration. Be more realistic--say growing your roll by something,ANYTHING,each month. Being consistent and improving your game EACH month. Most progress in poker will happen incrementally and steady,solid progress should be your goal. If you can do that,then the opportunities to see the big "pops" (MTT deep runs and/or wins) will come.

As to budgeting it's not just money,it's also time. Time should always be set aside for study--be it examining your hands and trying to find leaks and things you could do differently,to reading up on thoughts and concepts regarding the games that are in your current rotation of what you want to play (and when you feel that you are close to moving up a level in games you should begin your research into those games BEFORE you ever sit down in one),to taking part in study sessions like what Dave (thelangolier) offers here in Live Training. Even if you can't make these "live" you can always watch the videos at your own leisure. They are all well worth the time. You will learn something of value every time you watch one of these for sure. Don't be afraid to post hands that you saw in games you played (even if you weren't involved in the hand yourself) in the hand analysis section. Remember what many top players say--there is almost never just one way to play any given hand. New insights from other players can always be helpful.

As to the monetary end of budgeting pick the games that fit into your current BR parameters and always keep in mind that conservative BR management is almost always the right way to go. Knowing that you are adhering to proper BR management before you even sit down in a game will let you relax and just play poker.

3. FINDING WHERE MY TIME AND MONEY ARE BEST SERVED AT THE LEVEL I'M CURRENTLY ON...

This can be a little trickier and will require a little bit of experimentation. ALL games at the current level that fits your BR parameters should be considered. Read whatever is available on each game and try to watch a few of them being played. Try to find a "go-to" game or even 2 or 3. That means a game that you can beat consistently. Then work that game hard,a big number grind.

You're looking in the right places (mostly) at the $20+ you currently have,but be more realistic in what you want to accomplish in the games you choose. I'll elaborate what I mean on that later in this post.

Here are my thoughts at the level you're on...

1. PSO comes first. PERIOD. There is simply no quicker way to bump your BR up with no investment made but time than PSO. Look you've made $15 in the league in a month not too long ago. For you (or anyone else that's reading this and trying to grind up at these levels) PSO offers the best and quickest way to advance your BR each month. Play it right (as far as PSO goes). Avoid early busts like the plague,learn how to utilize the clock to your advantage and worry about acquiring points every time you sit in a PSO. Poker I've tabled with you enough to know that if you were to make a couple adjustment in your play in PSO that you can make the $30 level,at least,every month standing on your head. DO IT. Be active every month in PSO for the near future and grind out that $15,30 or $50 every month (or better). That should be priority number one for you right now.

So grinding out your 20 VPP's EVERY month should be your focus right now. The ring tables are the best place to do this. Remember acquiring your 20 VPP's is the main goal here so play tight,remember position and mostly let the other players build the pots for you. As long as you are dealt into a hand you get a piece of any rake points that are garnered.

2. Free is your friend right now. That doesn't only mean PSO but the astronomer freerolls and getting tickets to the weekly Round 2's as well. Be judicious in your time investment with these,but don't forget about them altogether either.

3. Understand the structure of what you're playing and make your goals accordingly. Again this fits into the study aspect of your time investment as well. There are plenty of different options at this beginning level to try and grind up your roll but understanding the structure of them will be key to any advancement. Let's look at a few of them...

PSO: Why I stress being active in PSO and grinding to at least the $15 level if at all possible is that the reward for time investment is most likely going to outstrip anything that you'll achieve in the .02/.04 FLHE ring games and the .09 + .01 360 and 240 Turbo/SNG's. The .10 ($50 added) MTT provides the opportunity for a quick boost to your BR of course,but for steady advancement to your BR at these mini-micro levels nothing beats PSO. Look at it like this way--would you play 50 MTT's in a month that cost .10 for every entry if you were hanging up $10 in winnings each month to double your money for a 100% ROI? Of course you would. Think of PSO like that--only better because there is no .10 entry fee.

.02/.04 FLHE rings: Great to grind and it (most likely) will take a bunch of hands (say 25 thousand or so) to make any real inroads into profitability in the .02/.04 FLHE games as the money tends to come incrementally in these. But you're really trying to get your VPP's in these and just as importantly--EXPERIENCE. FLHE is as excellent way to develop your post flop reading skills so it's not just a possible BR building and VPP building tool,but also a good teaching tool as well. Play around with 6-max and full ring to see which suits you better.

Turbos: These are the .09 +.01 360 and 240 PLO Tournaments,as well as the .02 990 Hyper-Turbo as well. Really don't think you should be defining success in these by a 50% ITM percentage. I think that's likely to lead to you coming up with a lot of bottom level cashes. You're better served to try and chip up early in these so you can apply pressure and steal your way to a big stack and make a FT run. I would rather cash around 20-25% in these with a top 5 finish % of 20% in those cashes. That would translate to a line in 100 of the 360's for example of: 100 played ($10 invested) 20 ITM and 4 Top five finishes. If you do that you should be in good shape. Remember 1 win in one of these is 68 buy-ins. Push for top finishes in these,that takes precedence over a higher ITM % IMO.

MTT: The .10 ($50 added) is DEFINITELY something you should be playing at least once a day. It loads 3 times a day,the best one is at 4PM EST (not sure what that translates to in the PI,sorry) as it has by far the most runner,ergo the most prize money. Playing ABC poker goes a long way in these,80% of the field (or more) will hang themselves if you give them the chance. The same can also be said for the .25 ($100 added) MTT. It only goes once a day but I highly recommend that you make this a regular play. Again,good solid play and using position can take you far in this game. Let the bad players come to you,you rarely have to force the action in these.

Push for a large number in all of these games (try to get good at multi-tabling here,since "deep" concepts aren't required for the most part in these games it's a good place to learn to multi) and grind it out. Moderate success over a large sample can equal big success.

Don't forget your note taking.

Don't get frustrated and don't be in too much of a hurry to move up. Grind a big number. KNOW you have a level beat before you move up to the next level.

Like the motto on a sign my HS baseball coach said--"The hurrier I go,the behinder I get."

Study,learn,experiment,adapt and HAVE FUN.

Good luck to everyone that finds anything in this post useful.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 07:22 AM
(#8)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Thank you so much for posting here moxie what you just put in was exactly the kind of reply to this post that I was looking for I always thought of you as a nice person and am kind of dissapointed that all the U.S. players are gone. I agree with everything you are saying here. The only thing I havent been doing is taking the SkillLeague as seriouse as I used 2 because of the time schedule.
But Today I totally broke the BR management plan I had and played in a 1.10 rebuy tourny after losing bad in that and a couple tournaments I shouldnt have played in the first place I ended up trying to chase my losses.
I played .10/.25 limit and then joined .20/.40 and .25/.50 8 game tables when I finished I had 40$. So I started playing HU limit and I thought I was going to go broke I was super tilted. It seemed like I couldnt win a single hand and lost over 20$s! Eventually after getting a bad run of cards things turned around it seemed as if tho I couldnt lose a hand! One player I was against would call me down to the river with nothing and I was raising ever turn flop and river. I was also hitting every draw. Guess I lucked out because I went up to 80 bucks. I stopped immediatly after that because I had to do something important which I think is a really good thing because who knows what would have happened if I stayed. I probably would have went crazy thinking im invincible and would have went bust again.

After reading your post This really made me want to try harder to control myself and stick with a plan and grind it out. I currently have 78 bucks because I just joined two 1.10 2k mtts. I am going to try my best to not go crazy again after a bad beat and blowing my whole bankroll on one game! What games should I be playing with $80s? I think I will stick with the same plan as before but try to play multiple tables at a time at the smallest levels.

I think now im going to try to play any kind of .25c tournament instead of the .10cent ones but still play the .10c mtts with money added.

Last edited by pokerstar671; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 07:41 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 07:46 AM
(#9)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
jf70 is that thing safe to download?
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 10:36 AM
(#10)
jf70's Avatar
Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerstar671 View Post
jf70 is that thing safe to download?
Is this a trick question?

PS. If I'm a hacker, I'll probably answer yes. Also, if I'm not a hacker, I'll probably answer yes.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 11:42 AM
(#11)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I did it again I went broke... Went up to 130 bucks and then went broke playing HU.. I guess ill just have to give up on poker I dont got the discipline for this game.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 07:50 PM
(#12)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Fantastic post Moxie and a good one from you too JF, but what I think pokerstar671 failed to notice is that you said SNGs and HU were profitable for you and MTTs not so much so. All of us have games where we excel and I remember Moxie saying one time that these are the games you should mine.

Mining, however is not growing a bankroll, from 21$ to 130$ and then losing it all. Sometimes you think you have found a goldmine but all you have really found is a moneypit. I should know

Dedication, discipline, patience and sensible bankroll management are key. Getting good at anything does not happen overnight nor in three days; there are no shortcuts.

Your starting roll was 21$, you should not be gambling more than 5% of that per day, which means a dollar a day roughly(actually 1.05$). If you lose the initial stake then you can only play 0.99$ the next day and so on. This is bankroll management!!!

With such a small bankroll, you should be concentrating on Freerolls and the PSO League to build a decent amount of money. After much trial and error and staying within the 5% per day rule I found I could consistently grow my bankroll in 1/2 cent cash and 50/50 games. I have started to play a few MTTs and guaranteed tournies and I believe I am near to the point where a deep run is imminent. However, I know that the growth of my bankroll depends on the areas where I can make money so I maybe play one or two MTTs a week, no more than that because it would undermine my bankroll to do so.

I would really advise you to deposit no more money until you objectively evaluate your game and see where it can be improved. If you do not have the patience or discipline to do that, then giving up is probably the best thing to do.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

TC
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 10:47 PM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Poker you're active this month...

POUND THE PSO!!!!!

I've seen you play enough to know that if you would just get the BR discipline part down (and that part is HUGE) then you CAN have some success at this.

DO NOT GIVE UP.

Grind the freebies and get your roll back up and then do EXACTLY what Topthecat said--NO MORE than 5% of your roll on the line in any individual day EVER (2-3% is even better).

Find the games where you can make steady,incremental gains (rings and SNG's) and use them to fund the games where you can get the big "pops" (MTT's) that can advance your roll quickly.

But ALWAYS stay within BR parameters.

Grind the Astronomers and study,study,study.

None of this will be easy but nothing worth having ever is. And if you can do this you WILL be a better player for it,I promise you that.

"Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."
Thomas Alva Edison

Rumor has it he was a pretty smart dude...
 
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Sun Jun 12, 2011, 07:57 AM
(#14)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Thank both of you for your replys. Topcat I didnt know that about the 5% per day. Thanks for explaining that to me. You know what im going to do this right learn from pso and build a BR from freerolling. No more deposits! Thanks you guys~
 
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Sun Jun 12, 2011, 08:00 AM
(#15)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I have .04c so im going to use tht for the hyper turbos. I used up all my fpps and regret it now because I had around 400 I could have used but thats history. Hopefully ill make a cash in the .02cent tourny
 
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Sun Jun 12, 2011, 09:07 AM
(#16)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
One word springs to mind when I read this. GAMBLER !

Now most people who don't understand our game consider us all gamblers. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you're going to be successful, before you even sit down at a table you should have a plan as detailed as you would for any "normal" business. BRM is an essential (possibly top of the list) part of this. I don't necessarily agree with the guys that are recommending putting a max on your daily investment. But you absolutely MUST place a ceiling on what you invest in each "job". A high percentage of businesses go bust not because they can't sell (win in our terms) but because they over trade and cripple their cash flow. Your bankroll should be viewed as the tools required to do your job. Put all your tools up as security for the job in hand and if it goes wrong, you are no longer able to work.

Now you have to decide why you are actually playing. At the moment it appears to me that you're in it for the "buzz" and the thrill of a big score. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as you appreciate that you are essentially playing for entertainment. And just as with any other "hobby" it's probably going to cost you money.

So I'm not necessarily criticising what you are currently doing. We all have different views and expectations. And from a personal viewpoint it would be far more difficult to turn a profit if everybody took a disciplined approach. But if you hope to actually profit from the game in the long term you are going to have to undergo a fundamental change in your thinking.

If it's any consolation, the upside of continuing on your current path is that you will always be made to feel welcome at the table
 
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Sun Jun 12, 2011, 10:35 AM
(#17)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Dman your right! Thanks for your post! I like the way you say you got to look at this like a business
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 01:56 PM
(#18)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Ok since I havent deposited yet im up to .75 from freerolls facebook and pso. Hopefully I will be able to get up to atleast 10$s before the end of the month. Maybe by tonight if I play well.

Last edited by pokerstar671; Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 01:58 PM..
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 02:54 PM
(#19)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Hey poker I have a question...

Based off your last deposit and when it was made are you eligible to play in these $1000 depositer freerolls that Stars has now? Is there a basement on how little one can deposit and be eligible to play in them? Are the entries limitless for each depositer as long as the promo runs?

Curious about these as I just now saw them when I logged on and was wondering about the parameters.
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 05:05 PM
(#20)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I think you can only join them if you make your first deposit.
 

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