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4NL, I have sweet combo draw

 
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4NL, I have sweet combo draw - Fri Jun 10, 2011, 03:34 PM
(#1)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
You Were Dealt
kithousand calls $0.04
1 fold
oriholic calls $0.04
Lebowski777 raised to $0.16
eljefe8616 calls $0.16
3 folds
kithousand calls $0.16
oriholic calls $0.16

Don't mind my limp. I'm playing a lot of hands, usually raising (probably running something like 35/28--just a guess though as I don't have a HUD. A guy the other day told me I was running 40/30 but I was playing a bit tighter this session, haha), but I do call a lot in position. Here I want to play and I don't want to get 3-bet off my hand so I limp behind. I also don't really want to iso the 50 BB stack, just not good enough implied odds. It also leaves a limp-reraise play open, though KJ even suited is a little too domination-prone for that move I think. The raiser isn't the kind of guy who just aggressively punishes limpers though, so I just call hoping to flop big. By the time it gets to me I'm calling 12¢ into 68¢, so it's a no-brainer call.

Kithousand has about a $2 stack, I have about $4. Lebowski has me covered ($7 or so). As far as I remember, he's pretty standard TAG, and generally has a big hand when he raises. I'm playing for his stack.


Dealing Flop

Amazing flop! I have top pair with a flush draw. It is actually impossible for me to ever be drawing dead here. Against a set or straight I have flush outs, against an ace high flush draw I already have a pair, against an overpair (most likely situation) I have 9 flush outs, 3 Ks and 2 Js, giving me a monster 14 out draw! I might even be the favorite. I check to the raiser, expecting him to bet here to protect his hand, my plan is to check-raise all in if he bets enough. I'd rather get it in now before either a blank comes on the turn, dropping my equity in the pot or the heart comes on the turn scaring him off his hand.

kithousand checks
oriholic checks
Lebowski777 bets $0.70
eljefe8616 folds
kithousand calls $0.70

And he follows through with a pot size bet! Overpair for sure! Whoa, the shortstack came along? Half his stack is in the middle now. So much money in the pot! No matter, following through with my plan, with all the money in the pot this move has to be +EV I don't even really care if he folds (though obviously I wouldn't mind it). I put him to the tough decision. I shove $4 into a $2 pot...

oriholic is All In
Lebowski777 calls $4.08
kithousand is All In

kithousand shows
oriholic shows
Lebowski777 shows

Figured he'd flip over aces or queens here. Maybe kings, but I had one making it less likely he had two. Turns out I'm actually a slight underdog to win this hand but with all the money in the pot this shove was definitely +EV.

Dealing Turn
Dealing River

Was pretty shocked when I saw what the shortstack was playing... QT offsuit stacked off on that flop. Free money, 50 BBs at a time.

I scoop the $10 pot and my "bankroll" is up to $28 Yeah, bankroll management, hahaha. 4NL is the smallest NL on the site, what can I do, play limit?? Yuck.

Last edited by oriholic; Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 05:34 PM..
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 04:41 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Raise pre to iso the weak limper.

You made the statement you don't want to get 3b off your hand, in my limited experiences at micro-stakes nobody is 3-betting light unless they're a maniac... the amount of 3-betting I've seen at 10nl and under is really small (maybe partially rose colored glasses as I'm used to more of it at 50nl+). With the vast majority of 3-betting being "legit" hands, raising works well here... you iso the limper in position, and get away from your hand cheap when you run into a real hand behind you.

Quote:
I also don't really want to iso the 50 BB stack, just not good enough implied odds.
I do. Implied odds are for drawing hands. You're iso-ing with the best hand in position, creating a very profitable value situation for yourself. And your raise creates a more favorable spr for getting it in post flop vs. a loose/weak player.

Your post flop play is fine, it's a great flop for you and your equity is solid even vs. an overpair. If you have any fold equity at all (which you may not vs overpairs at 4nl, they'll monkey their stack off with an overpair to the board all day long), the c/r shove is perfect.

Dave
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 06:06 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Like the shove when you did it... I'd have done the same thing Ori.

In the 4 cent NL games I've played... you'll see people call all-in's with alot worse than Q 10 for that flop. I've seen some crazy, crazy plays.
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 07:07 PM
(#4)
tombomb92's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Raise pre to iso the weak limper.

You made the statement you don't want to get 3b off your hand, in my limited experiences at micro-stakes nobody is 3-betting light unless they're a maniac... the amount of 3-betting I've seen at 10nl and under is really small (maybe partially rose colored glasses as I'm used to more of it at 50nl+). With the vast majority of 3-betting being "legit" hands, raising works well here... you iso the limper in position, and get away from your hand cheap when you run into a real hand behind you.



I do. Implied odds are for drawing hands. You're iso-ing with the best hand in position, creating a very profitable value situation for yourself. And your raise creates a more favorable spr for getting it in post flop vs. a loose/weak player.

Your post flop play is fine, it's a great flop for you and your equity is solid even vs. an overpair. If you have any fold equity at all (which you may not vs overpairs at 4nl, they'll monkey their stack off with an overpair to the board all day long), the c/r shove is perfect.

Dave

i disagree with the shove i personaly would have just reraised to induce a ship there i think i prefer this option as you want to get the money in the pot really so i think long term betting to induce a ship there could potentialy get move value into the pot and make it more +ev long term but im not a 6max or full ring cash player
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 01:41 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombomb92 View Post
i disagree with the shove i personaly would have just reraised to induce a ship there i think i prefer this option as you want to get the money in the pot really so i think long term betting to induce a ship there could potentialy get move value into the pot and make it more +ev long term but im not a 6max or full ring cash player
There's $2.04 in the pot when the action gets back to him, he's only got $4 behind. A standard reraise will be over half his stack. Once he reraises all the money is going in anyway, but a small reraise looks a lot stronger than a shove which people will think is a draw. In his case he's got a nice draw but also a made hand of some value as well.

The money's just not deep enough, I think it's likely the guy is either continuing or not (to any size check/raise) and if he does continue it's all going in (no matter how it gets there).
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 05:17 PM
(#6)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Ah good point Dave. I just wanted to mix up my game a bit. Sometimes I'll raise 50%+ to iso the BB or 3-bet anything in late position against a weak limper. I generally don't like to 3-bet drawing hands in early position though because if there's a raise behind me I don't have good odds to play, and it's really hard to push a 3-better off his hand postflop unless he's a nit with KK on an ace high board or it's too flushy. Then again, I guess KJ suited isn't really a drawing hand, in the sense that it's generally a better hand than what the limper has. I usually just treat it that way to keep out of trouble.

Haha, I 3-bet light all the time. Usually for isolation but sometimes I even get these nits to fold. I can't show them my J3 suited though. 4NL on this site is just full of nits.

Thanks JWK.

Thanks for your comment Tom. When it gets to me there's $2 in the pot and I have $4 behind. If I call I'll have about $3, and if I raise to about $2, I will look either extremely strong (set) or like I'm on a pure flush draw. By shoving I keep a lot of other hands in my apparent range I think. I might be overplaying AJ, KK, QQ, all of which he is way ahead of. I'm not sure how much he's thinking about what I have, but I know this line looks super semi-bluffy.

Also
Quote:
i disagree with the shove i personaly would have just reraised to induce a ship there
.
I know I have a monster draw with tons of equity, but I'd still rather be the final raiser than the final caller. Also, I really don't want to lose out on any value should my flush come in.

Next question:

You're in his shoes with here facing my shove. Call or fold? What about if you have ?
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 11:21 PM
(#7)
Andromedan11's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Next question:
You're in his shoes with here facing my shove. Call or fold? What about if you have ?
Well, the AA is almost for certain the best hand here... And normally you want to get all the money in when you have the best of it... The questions I would have to ask myself if I had the AA are:

How likely are the two pair or better hands, as well as how likely are the monster draws (which usually have more equity than his made hand), considering the all in I'm facing and the previous action?


Here's the way I see it:
There doesn't seem to be any logical two pair hand here (I doubt even the one that entered with QT would enter with J7 often in the same spot...). MAYBE he can suspect you were trying to limp with a drawing hand such as 87... but too unlikely...

Sets aren't something too likely here as well (pocket jacks... would have to be pretty trappy for a guy who tried to limp... pocket 77 or 88... very low chance of these, though of course it's possible.


So the main problem is the combo draws... There are a few of these, but the question is, are they frequent enough here for the AA here to fold? hmmmm....

An all in here has to represent either JJ (even though unlikely), 88, 77, KhJh, QhJh, AhJh (which probably doesn't worry the AA much, as he has two of the Aces), JhTh, T9 (of anything... both of the last hands may explain the limp too...).

Of course, given the depth of money, it could be a realization that any other raise would commit you to the pot so you go for a semi bluff with a normal draw going for maximum fold equity.


I think it's close... Normally the AA would be either a big underdog (in very few cases), a small underdog in many cases, and a big favorite in the gutsy semi bluff with normal draw case.

I think it's a close fold here... assuming the other play is willing to risk that much without any reads on him seems wrong to me, but perhaps I'm just a bit too timid.


I'd love to hear the pros' response to your question though.
 

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