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66: BTN push

 
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66: BTN push - Fri Jun 10, 2011, 08:01 PM
(#1)
kiroman68's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 113
I dont think I can play any different but Im not 100% sure



for exclusion, 66 with about 4 BB from BTN I cannot fold, simplean hand like PP with that blinds and my stack, IP is too strong to fold.

With about 4BB I cannot bet my stack has an M of 2 and it is in the red zone so Im in push/fold mode but because the League and the leaderboard, points etc., Im not sure if the push with 66 from BTN can be play in some other way. TY
 
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P.S. - Fri Jun 10, 2011, 08:05 PM
(#2)
kiroman68's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 113
P.S. Villian is a bit lose so far in his stats. I will definetely fold against a raise from a tight/nitty player.
 
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Fri Jun 10, 2011, 08:18 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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as long as for where you are, you're in + points territory, then it's a shove or fold. If the opp is playing loose, then I'm shoving (and assuming I'm in a race).
If you're not at the breakeven point mark yet, then it's a muck. If the opp is playing tight or TAG, then it's a muck.

Either way, it either needs to be a shove or fold.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 05:07 AM
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unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
You say it's shove or fold, but why not call?

If he calls and doesn't like the flop, he's got 1715 left. Maybe enough to get to the + points (or at the most less -points) and enough for a second change wih another hand in my opinion.

Woth a shove I guess you want him to fold, because if he calls you are probably not that strang with 66.

But with his stacksize and considering he'll probably call, why shove then?

I read a lot that it's often shove or fold, but sometimes I think why not on the flop? It seems to mee that it's easier to get someone to fold the AK when he has seen the flop then before the flop. And with a hand like 66 I'd rather have them fold then call (unless I hit the 6)

Now with this flop he'll probably raise and call anything. But maybe he's the kind of guy that is scared of the J, makes a small raise or just checks, you shove the rest, and he folds (not very prabable, but who knows). Or with this flop you still can get out.

And would there have been another flop (for example 2, 7, 10), someone is more likely to fold the AK than preflop.

So I don't understand why it is shove or fold, when it's not really necessary yet (I think), and when it's more probale that he'll fold postflop then preflop (because of his stacksize and the way he plays).

Last edited by unha2011; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 05:50 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 05:47 AM
(#5)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
as long as for where you are, you're in + points territory, then it's a shove or fold. If the opp is playing loose, then I'm shoving (and assuming I'm in a race).
If you're not at the breakeven point mark yet, then it's a muck. If the opp is playing tight or TAG, then it's a muck.

Either way, it either needs to be a shove or fold.
And one more question.

You say if the opp is playing tight or TAG (which I assume means tight agressive? I've just started playing a month ago, so I don't know all these things), then it's a muck.

But if he's playing TAG wouldn't a raise of two BB look like that he wants to play the hand, but isn't really sure? So I would think that that kind of player would then be more likely to fold the shove then a loose player.

So if it's not really necessary to shove yet, but you are choosing between to shove or to fold, wouldn't you then rather shove agains a tight player than against a loose player when the raise is 2BB?

And if it's really necessary to shove or fold (blinds higher, your stack is smaller) then I would rather play against the loose player, because of his wider range and because then both the tight and the loose player are more likely to call.

Last edited by unha2011; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 05:50 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 05:58 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by unha2011 View Post
It seems to mee that it's easier to get someone to fold the AK when he has seen the flop then before the flop.
The first thing you must understand is that you would never know beforehand that the villain had AK. Their cards would never be dealt face-up for you to see. You must understand that concept before you'll understand the reasoning behind why people push or fold, and why calling is typically called 'the worst option' in spots like this one. If you could see the villain's cards before picking what play to make, then calling would probably be massively +EV, because if you push preflop, you have roughly 50% equity, which will result in a very small gain of chips over time. But if you called, then you could make perfect plays on every flop, and since most flops would not contain an ace or king (and because roughly 25% of the time, the unseen turn and river would contain an ace or king), you'd be able to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses, and in so doing, increase your expectation above a breakeven result.

Since you can't see your opponent's cards, pushing effectively does the same thing as calling does, but gives you added fold equity. I'm not completely in the know regarding those calculations, so I won't give you a detailed theoretical respose about that. Just remember the words 'fold equity'. That's pretty much the reason why pushing is +er EV than calling (although potentially a -EV play, just less -EV than calling, if pushing were -EV).

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 06:15 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 06:12 AM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by unha2011 View Post
And if it's really necessary to shove or fold (blinds higher, your stack is smaller) then I would rather play against the loose player, because of his wider range and because then both the tight and the loose player are more likely to call.
You almost answered your own question here.

When considering reraise shoving, you should consider what your opponent's opening range is, and what their calling (of your reraise) range is. If the villain has a way bigger calling range than their opening range (e.g. they'll open 100% of hands, but only call with aces), then reraising typically is way +EV, simply because of the amount of money you make by picking up pots when they fold (fold equity). If their opening range is pretty close to their calling range (e.g. they'll open only 10% of hands, but they'll never fold any of them to a reraise), then you pretty much need to get the pencil and paper out and figure out mathematically if shoving is good or bad (this is a very hard skill to acquire; reshoving ranges are very math-intensive and differ from villain to villain). Most people just use their gut and general principles to determine whether shoving is good or bad.

One of those general principles is that the looser a player is, the better shoving on them is. There are two reasons for this:

1) If they're smart, they'll fold a lot of their opening range, which gives you a lot of fold equity, and

2) If they don't fold a lot of their opening range, then unless you were shoving with a weak hand yourself, you'll typically be ahead of their range, making lots money over the long-term.

Essentially, when you reshove a decent hand on a loose player, the onus of making the correct play is on them, and if they fail because they're too loose or too tight in their calls, you profit. The same is true of tight players, but because they were playing tight to begin with, their decisions are much easier and you profit less from their mistakes.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 06:15 AM
(#8)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The first thing you must understand is that you would never know beforehand that the villain had AK.
I understand you don't see your opponents hand before the play (it's a shame, would help a lot, but then it's not really a game anymore)

But you've got people playing who'll call anything after they have raised, with anything. And especially if they have a bigger stack.

So it doesn't matter if they have an AK or a J 5, they simply won't fold after they have raised with a bigger stack.

So what's the point of shoving when calling gives you the same result or maybe better considering the player you are up against)

I see you allready answered that I think, we were typing at the same time. Thx for the reply

Last edited by unha2011; Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 06:21 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 06:22 AM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If you just call in this situation, you'll never know where you stand on any flop (villain could have a higher pair than you even easier than they could have AK; you'll be way ahead or way behind and never know which). If you just call, you're giving yourself reasons to fold on the flop, but given the stack sizes, you'll never be able to gain information and outplay your opponent after the flop has come. This means that if you rate to be ahead, shoving is a good idea, but if you rate to be behind, you should fold. Calling and seeing a flop will presumably not make you more money long-term than shoving preflop will.
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 06:48 AM
(#10)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If you just call in this situation, you'll never know where you stand on any flop (villain could have a higher pair than you even easier than they could have AK; you'll be way ahead or way behind and never know which). If you just call, you're giving yourself reasons to fold on the flop, but given the stack sizes, you'll never be able to gain information and outplay your opponent after the flop has come. This means that if you rate to be ahead, shoving is a good idea, but if you rate to be behind, you should fold. Calling and seeing a flop will presumably not make you more money long-term than shoving preflop will.
First of all thx for the replies.

I know I need to play more agressive (at least I think I do). But I think that pays of more in regular tournaments than in PSO. Because here you get more people I think calling and raising with anything, especially in the beginnig of the tournament (and yes, sometime it's me doing that )

So I get more nervous playing agressive here than I would in a cashgame.

But given this situation: you can't reraise because of the stacksize, so then you shove, I understand that. But then you have information that you can't use anymore, because you're all in, so there's no more plays to be made. The only information that you get when he calls is that he probably has you beat, but you can't pull back anymore, because you're all in. If you call you could get info on the flop, because you are in position Okay, maybe not very valuable information, but at leats it's information you can still act upon.

But with 66 I would'r rate my chances very high (maybe I'm wrong), so if the decision is shove or fold (when I still have the chance for a better hand later on with my stack) I'd fold.

But I'll think about it some more, so don't bet on that when you see me at the table
 
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Sat Jun 11, 2011, 10:43 AM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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the other reason for either a shove or fold is how many BB's you have left. You have less than 10BB left, so what you're looking for... is a hand to put all your chips into.

With less than 10BB left, you don't want to leak off any chips by just calling, not knowing where you are in the hand, then folding.

If you had more chips with the 66, then it can be ok to call... but you don't want to do it shortstacked.
 

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