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Is this a folding hand?

 
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Is this a folding hand? - Tue Jun 14, 2011, 06:52 PM
(#1)
Skinza101's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 3
BronzeStar
Just thought i would post this hand. Even though i won, would it have been better for me to have folded instead of going all in? I went all in to try and force the large stack out.

 
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?? - Tue Jun 14, 2011, 07:01 PM
(#2)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
While in many cases - you may not give the button credit for a raise-- as he may be stealing- this shuv puts you all in(effectively) - so ya- imma folding there- reshuvving to sheriff the pot is a good play though-- just not with K9- imo-- gl-- monk....
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 07:17 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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you got really, really lucky. By you pushing after the button shove, you basically priced in the BB... guaranteeing a 3-way pot... which is what you don't want.

You're only going to win that pot 1 in 5 times with your hand (1 in 3 if the BB folds, which they should never do in that situation)... you're alot better folding and trying to get your chips in when you are ahead, instead of being in a 3-way pot.
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 10:13 PM
(#4)
Skinza101's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 3
BronzeStar
Ok. Thanks for the info.
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 02:47 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
Dont over value hands because they are suited or because it looks like some one is taking liberties with your blinds.You are not short enough to be playing King rag against villains range.
You want to be the raise/bettor most of the time.
It takes a better hand to call than it does to bet.That is not a saying for no reason and I try to remind myself that over and over when I am contemplating calling a really aggressive player.
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
A couple of concepts for you:

1) When you CALL for most (or all) your stack, you have just 1 way to win- when you hold the best hand at the river. When YOU initiate the all-in you potentially have 2 ways to win- either you hold the best hand at the river (if you get called), or you could make a BETTER hand fold.

This means that there will be a lot of times you will be "ok" with someone calling you if YOU shove, so long as you are going to have as little as a 33% "equity" (chance to win) versus the hand which calls you based on the size of your stack in this hand.

When you CALL off most your chips though, you really want to have a strong chance to be AT LEAST 50/50 versus the hand the opponent is likely to shove in ahead of you (on this size stack).

(NOTE: based on the size of the pre-shove pot, sometimes you will need LESS than 50/50 to call, simply because there is "extra money" up for grabs. I dont want to go into the math of that though, so suffice it to say if you can only win by holding the best hand, you want a 50/50 shot at least, ok?)

In this hand he jammed AJs, you called with K9s. Were it just you two in the hand, you would have had only about a 37% chance to win. Had you KNOWN you were risking that much of your stack with that small a chance to win, would you have still called?

2) In order to have a good idea what your chances are if you call with a given hand, You really need to sharpen your ability to observe the play tendencies of your opponent(s).

While you will not know the SPECIFIC hand he is jamming (unless he only jams AA or soemthing else very odd), you should be able to pin down a potential RANGE of hands a given opponent will move on.

This also works when you are considering jamming yourself: you should have an idea of his CALLING RANGE; these things develop with practice.

3) You really need to become familiar with comparative values of hands you hold vis a vis those shoving (or calling) ranges you've identified. Here is a link for you:

http://www.pokerstove.com/

That is what is called an "equity calculator", and it is free to down load.
I'm sure you've hand calculators, where you input your hand and the EXACT opponent's hand, and it tells you what chance you actually had to win.

This differs from those in that you can input MULTIPLE potential opponent's hands (his "range" as you've noticed), and you can then compare your chance to win with your hand versus that entire range. Practicing inputting hands, and opponent ranges, in there can really sharpen your ability to analyize for yourself whether or not the hand you hold is worth calling off most of your stack.

....

Once you begin to get a better handle on these concepts, and start to apply them more, you will really begin to see why CALLING most of your stack versus a shover when you hold K9s is really not a great idea very often.

Hope it helps.
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 02:23 PM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Depends on this guy's range, but it's really close. In a pushing situation, under 10 BBs, K9 suited is actually a pretty strong hand. It's a top 15% pushing hand and a top 20% calling hand.

Would need to know a lot more information. What kind of tournament is this? What stage is it in, opponents' tendencies etc.

Quote:
I went all in to try and force the large stack out.
That extra 700 chips isn't going to change anything, but there's no point in just calling.

Quote:
By you pushing after the button shove, you basically priced in the BB... guaranteeing a 3-way pot... which is what you don't want.
Nah, the BB doesn't have to call. A call and loss ruins his medium stack. What are the chances he wins this 3-way? He's only getting 2.3 to 1 to win a 3-way pot, which is not good enough unless he has a really good hand. Overcalling here would be terrible of him unless he has a really good hand.

I think the BB's overcall with KT was worse than the K9 call. If I give the button a 30% range and SB a 20% range, KT diamonds only wins about 30% of the time. This call is slightly -EV or maybe neutral with the extra 700 chips he can win. If I tighten up those ranges to 20% and 15%, BB now only wins 28% of the time.

So yeah, I really don't like his overcall. The K9 suited call wasn't bad and it might be a good spot to gamble. The KT overcall was bad.

Really important though, what tournament was this and where were you with respect to the money?
 

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