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Great Hand #10 EPT 4 Copenhagen - Dorsland vs Lund

 
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Great Hand #10 EPT 4 Copenhagen - Dorsland vs Lund - Tue Jun 14, 2011, 06:55 PM
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EPT 4 Copenhagen - Dorsland vs Lund. Is it possible to put Dorsland on AA or even KK in this hand?


Watch video here.


Would you have acted the same way? What would you have done differently? Share your thoughts and feedback via this forum discussion about this hand.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 07:29 PM
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The secret star of this video for me is Daniel Negreanu doing the commentary - that's like an added bonus to get his insight
 
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Tue Jun 14, 2011, 10:35 PM
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I think Daniel's spot on, in his commentary. I can understand Dorsland being agressive on the flop... especially if the opponent was playing hyper-aggressive. Surprised me that he'd fold, if he's that aggressive with the chip stack he did. Only thing I'd think of is if he picked up on something from Dorsland's play at the table (and was dead wrong on it).
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 02:14 AM
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A few things to look at here that make this play not as bad as Daniel is saying in the commentary.
Dorsland is raising with the chip leader next to act and he has only played 2 hands.Of course A4 is not that great of a hand to show up with previously but he has shown he is tight and his hand is strong enough to get into it with the chip leader.
People are often afraid to make plays with a big stack yet to act and even more so if they are on the nitty side.So his preflop play shows strength and is strong with AQs.
Lund raises him and he snap calls and doesnt even know exactly the amount he needs to put in,but his tell is that he looks at his cards again.

The flop is dry as hell and Dorsland knows that if he allows Lund wiggle room he will exploit it.
Daniel mentions that he is hyper aggressive which would make me want to act first against him as well.Dorsland has close to half his stack in the pot,so a allin is a must at this point.
What can he put Lund on that would call?
The Jack scares any under pairs from making a hero call.If he doesnt think he has the Jack than
he starts thinking he might have A6os or even over pair.Its not a easy call for Lund,even if Daniel thinks it is.Dorsland is not expecting to see AK,so he is gambling that Lund doesnt have a pair.

I dont mind this and it is something you learn to exploit playing Heads up.Dry flops are great for this.
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 04:40 PM
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That's exactly how I'd play AQ there, especially against a hyper aggressive player. This play is called a go-stop-go. On the flop he'll be first to act, with a potsize bet remaining.

Now why call preflop instead of shoving? If Dorslund shoves he gives Lund about 2 to 1 on a call. Which is good enough for most of his range. Lund can't make a mistake if he calls preflop unless he has a hand like Q3, you know, some weaker Qx or Ax hand. By waiting until the flop, he still gives about 2 to 1 odds, but with 3 of 5 cards already shown, Lund can make a mistake by calling/folding. He can fold better (any pair or AK), he can call worse (any unmade hand less than AQ), and he can fold out hands that still have some equity and might have paired up along the way. Like a 98 type hand that has odds to call preflop and ends up pairing on the river after missing the flop.

Also, don't listen to Daniel. That was a perfect play. Can't be putting in 1/3 your stack and folding, so checking to the raiser really doesn't make sense.

As for Lund folding the 10s, that's close. If he's ranging him and paying attention to stack size and betting pattern he should realize that Dorslund would shove with all of his preflop range here...So, what was his preflop range? He's probably ranging him on something like JJ+, AQ+. In that case he's against the very bottom of Dorlsund's range, but he's way behind the range as a whole, and getting slightly worse than the odds he needs to call. Dorslund would need to be about as wide as 8% (99+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+) for Lund to make the call here.

Would he commit to shove the flop any wider than that? If so it's a call, if not it's a fold.

Quote:
Surprised me that he'd fold, if he's that aggressive with the chip stack he did.
Aggressive players bet and raise a lot. They don't call off their stacks lightly.
 
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Wed Jun 15, 2011, 07:17 PM
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Completely disagree with oriholic here, and not just because I idolize DN. There's just little logic behind going all in here. DN is completely correct; you can't credit him with anything that has a J in it. With AJ the risk of domination is too high; JJ he would have shoved preflop.
What is he even representing with that shove? It's impulsive to shove with that many chips in the pot, whatever the flop comes, and the flop is dry as hell-- but that's precisely why Lund should make the hero call. QQ+ is too passive preflop, too aggressive postflop where he would be more likely to trap.

Also look at the stack sizes... 339K and 561K basically with 12K big blinds -- 28BBs with a little over 7 invested preflop, that's not even close to 1/2 his stack. Maybe with 14 BB it would be a nice stop and go play, but again in that situation you're hoping that your opponent has nothing, and if he knows you'll shove with any two cards he *should* call with TT. But here it's just weirdly inconsistent, and when you sense that (unless maybe HU) it usually means a bluff. AA/KK just doesn't fit the lack of a 3-bet and insta-shove ... again, it's the preflop/posflop agression differential (if that makes any sense) that implies the call is correct..

Last edited by jf70; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 07:38 AM..
 
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Fri Jun 24, 2011, 07:47 PM
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Since: Feb 2010
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As Dorsland, that's the sort of shove I might make if I think Lund has AK, AQ or a small to medium pocket pair. As Lund, that's the sort of move I would expect from someone with AQ or a medium pocket pair. Bad lay down.
 

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