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Question About Preflop 3Betting in Position- Why Should You Do It?

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Question About Preflop 3Betting in Position- Why Should You Do It? - Thu Jun 16, 2011, 03:33 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Alright, this might seem like an immensely basic question, or a very complex one. It comes across both ways in my head, and I'm hoping for some advice on this, because I think that it's a skill that I'm missing in my regular game. This question is asked with a 6-max cash game scenario in mind.

Why should you 3bet in position, preflop, at a cash game table?

Here's what I have going on in my head, and I'll use scenarios to illustrate my thinking.

Scenario #1: The Pure Value 3Bet

UTG ($8.06)
MP ($10.57)
Hero (Button) ($30.34)
SB ($14.10)
BB ($19.60)

Preflop: Hero is BU with A, A
UTG bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises

What's the point here? Worse hands will call/raise you, guaranteed. There are no better hands, so bluffing has nothing to do with this 3bet. It is purely for value.

Scenario #2: The 3Bet Bluff

UTG ($8.06)
MP ($10.57)
Hero (Button) ($30.34)
SB ($14.10)
BB ($19.60)

Preflop: Hero is BU with 2, 3
UTG bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises

What's the point here? Gain value with a virtually worthless hand. Balance your range with light 3bets to confuse opponents. There may be others, but none that I can think of. I personally never do this, but there are situations where it is +EV, and therefore absolutely correct to do. How can I tell when I am in one such situation?

Scenario #3: Value Cutting with a Playable Hand?

UTG ($8.06)
MP ($10.57)
Hero (Button) ($30.34)
SB ($14.10)
BB ($19.60)

Preflop: Hero is BU with T, T
UTG bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises

What's the point? No idea. Is this for value? It had better be because TT s a fantastic hand, but is 3betting here ever a good idea? I never do it. But that's out of ignorance.

Scenario #4: 3Betting with a Drawing Hand

UTG ($8.06)
MP ($10.57)
Hero (Button) ($30.34)
SB ($14.10)
BB ($19.60)

Preflop: Hero is BU with 4, 5
UTG bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises

I have no idea why someone would do this. I think that this kind of 3bet has potential to be highly effective at doing something, but I don't know what that might be. I don't do this, either.

So, as you can see, I only ever 3bet in position with a pure value range. I know that I'm leaving money on the table by doing this, but it's because I don't know how to 3bet. Anybody who knows me as a player can probably see through my cards when I 3bet in position, so how do I fix this?

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 09:43 PM..
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 05:26 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I should add that 3betting to isolate is one purpose for 3betting that I didn't mention in my OP. I try and work these 3bets in, but this is only one reason to 3bet, and I imagine that there are many more. My above post is asking not only what hand values to 3bet with, but the situations in which to 3bet them. AA is an example of a hand to 3bet with (the situation for an AA 3bet would probably be: most situations); isolating a weaker player is an example of a situation (hand values for this 3bet: just about any hand that you're confident in your ability to play profitably postflop).

So, I guess I'm mainly looking for more situations/reasons to 3bet. I'd really like to work on this skill.
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 07:32 AM
(#3)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
first off let me say that this is just my uneducated take on this.... ur senerios all have one thing in common (UR NOT IP, UR OOP) only at the moment of ur 3 bet u are IP and if called or raised ur playing the rest of the hand OOP, so ur subject is a bit out of wack. .... ok now i'm confused ... u say button at the stack sizes but say hero is SB with XX ... ok sinse ur subject says IN position we'll say button is it.... being the big stack in all senerios i think u should be keeping up the pressure on ur opps. this to me means opening up ur range (esp. in position) and until u meet some resistance, relentlessly pounding on the other players. i like to polarize in this case sinse it makes all ur desisions soooooo much ezier but if ur playing against nits alot of times ATC is good enough IP to raise and if called just need to outplay ur opps post if ur opps dont give you the fold ur looking for. if ur opps are loose, value is def. the way to go. I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish with your 3bet. this is very situationally dependant. obviously with premiums you want a call, and with rags you want a fold. so when 3betting your actions should be very opponent specific I'm not so much card specific I think. and the OR's position and range are the keys. there's my 2 cents bro....stack em high!....MT

Ps. Monk, ya I got that, just took me a minute,thnx..lol

Last edited by mtnestegg; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 08:57 AM..
 
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?? - Thu Jun 16, 2011, 08:15 AM
(#4)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Hey stegg- have another look- hero is on the button - in evry hand-- meaning last to act- therefore has postition--

hey- PP- for me 3 betting in position- i do basically for 2 reasons- when i have a strong hand- i will 3-bet a player that i know will call- to bloat the pot-- when i dont have the goods- i will 3-bet a player that i believe will fold- to take it then and there- these situations are very -read based- imo-- gl-- monk..

PS- conversely- if i have the goods and facing a raise by a player that tends to fold to 3 bets- i may just flat- so he dont go away-- and if facing a raise holding trash, from a player that opens very few pots- ill let it go---

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 08:26 AM..
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 10:15 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ing-Essentials

Panicky, probably edit your OP so it doesn't say you're on the SB in the line where your hand is displayed, it's confusing.

Situation 1: Good 3b in virtually all situations. AA coolers so many big hands, you want to give the villain a chance to 4B so you can get it in pre, and lower the SPR for better post flop commitment decisions.

Situation 2: Sort of the right idea, but wrong hand selection. Generally do this as a resteal with a blocker, or with hands that have some post flop value but are just below your profitable calling range. It's most profitable vs. villains who open wide and/or fold to 3B a high %.

Situation 3: Generally bad, except against very specific villain types. See the video I linked.

Situation 4: This has become more popular in recent history with a certain training site teaching hyper-aggressive play at higher stakes. It generally should fall into situation 2 in terms of hand selection, but depending on the depth of money it is often better to flat and not 3b to set up a favorable SPR for you (usually by being bad for your opponent). But against the good resteal candidates this is a nice hand strength to fit into situation 2.
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 10:57 AM
(#6)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
[QUOTE=TheLangolier;283313]http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ing-Essentials

Panicky, probably edit your OP so it doesn't say you're on the SB in the line where your hand is displayed, it's confusing.

only to those of us that hear a rattling sound when we shake our head, but still...lol
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 11:01 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ing-Essentials

Panicky, probably edit your OP so it doesn't say you're on the SB in the line where your hand is displayed, it's confusing.
only to those of us that hear a rattling sound when we shake our head, but still...lol

Not really, I did the same thing at first. The eyes are naturally drawn to the hole cards, and that line states hero is the small blind.
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#8)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
(Super-Moderator)
** Moved **
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 09:53 PM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Whoops. That's what I get for trying to play with hand histories after midnight. Thanks for the answers. I'll give that video a watch. It's one of the ones I've missed, apparently.
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 12:01 PM
(#10)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hi Panicky,

in any of the scenarios that you mention always try to think of a good reason to 3-bet by focusing on exploiting your opponent's mistakes (i.e. calling/4-betting too wide, folding too much). If you cannot find one, you might much rather consider calling or even folding.

While playing micro- and small stakes 6-max cashgames you will always be facing weaker competition, soft spots and also weaker regulars. Against all of those villain types you should never aim to be balanced, but in fact do the opposite by exploiting them.

As one of my favorite instructors/authors, BalugaWhale, likes to put it: It is actually quite an easy game:

If your opponent opens a lot of pots and will be fighting back (calling/4betting) worse hands, then 3-bet a wide range for value and profit.

If your opponent opens a lot of pots and will be folding an insanely high % of the time, 3-bet bluff them with a wide range (be sure not to include potential value hands that you are not willing to go to war with when facing further action).

Try to tailor your 3-betting strategies just as any other strategy in poker exactly to your specific opponent's possible reactions or mistakes.

It's only when the player pool becomes very competent and small with a lack of weak/exploitable opponents that balance and different 3-betting strategies become more valuable.

I hope that helped!

Felix

Last edited by PSO-xflixx; Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:03 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 24, 2011, 02:23 PM
(#11)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
lol you need to put in more hours...

Flatting AA in position is fine at times...... it all depends on the table.........but generally flatting AA should only be done at higer stakes like 10/20$ and higher where players are more cautious and fold equity is more valid however oponents in this level are generally tuff and wont back down with their trigger hehe flatting with the nuts is fun when ur getting 3 barreld with AA but still u leave urself open to get fukd playing a constant guessing game not able to put ur opponent on a range of hands that he may have all because u ddnt 3 bet ...........flatting AA on the button lower stakes is just kinda silly considering the value you will miss from villains strong hands at times even with trash that theyl take a flop with............

But generally your 3 bet freqeuncy should be fairly high enough so that you do start getting called by others oop with there trash when u have it............Start 3 betting a whole lot more more in position and slowly start 3 betting a little OOP, if anything convincing your opponents to play OOP is perfect especially when u adjust and just only start playing in position..........but then again that all depends on how good the players are that ur playing............its all different ae

GZoodluck

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Sun Jul 24, 2011 at 02:26 PM.. Reason: spelling mistake
 
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Sun Jul 24, 2011, 02:30 PM
(#12)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
lol i think u got the wrong definition for 3 betting aslo heheh ahwell just put in more hours man
 
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Sun Jul 24, 2011, 03:04 PM
(#13)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
lol you need to put in more hours...

Flatting AA in position is fine at times...... it all depends on the table.........but generally flatting AA should only be done at higer stakes like 10/20$ and higher where players are more cautious and fold equity is more valid however oponents in this level are generally tuff and wont back down with their trigger hehe flatting with the nuts is fun when ur getting 3 barreld with AA but still u leave urself open to get owned playing a constant guessing game not able to put ur opponent on a range of hands that he may have all because u ddnt 3 bet ...........flatting AA on the button lower stakes is just kinda silly considering the value you will miss from villains strong hands at times even with trash that theyl take a flop with............

But generally your 3 bet freqeuncy should be fairly high enough so that you do start getting called by others oop with there trash when u have it............Start 3 betting a whole lot more more in position and slowly start 3 betting a little OOP, if anything convincing your opponents to play OOP is perfect especially when u adjust and just only start playing in position..........but then again that all depends on how good the players are that ur playing............its all different ae

GZoodluck
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 03:39 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSO-xflixx View Post

While playing micro- and small stakes 6-max cashgames you will always be facing weaker competition, soft spots and also weaker regulars. Against all of those villain types you should never aim to be balanced, but in fact do the opposite by exploiting them.

As one of my favorite instructors/authors, BalugaWhale, likes to put it: It is actually quite an easy game:
I really like this statement...

Personally, I view this the same way, but maybe from a bit of a different perspective.

Deceptive plays should have a "reason", because the act of deception often entails delayed value...either until later streets in the same hand, or by "balancing" your actions to derive greater value in later hands. It is relatively rare that a deceptive play is also the "best" standard value play (although when that happens, GREAT!)

Against players who have little awareness, and a high willingness to make "standard" mistakes repeatedly, there is very little benefit in delaying value through deceptive play; you benefit more by making the "straight forward" play and rely on opponents' mistakes to pay you off now.
 

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