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when to re-raise?

 
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when to re-raise? - Thu Jun 16, 2011, 02:37 PM
(#1)
enjaydub's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 9
Got a little unlucky I suppose. After playing about 30 hands at this table, I was noticing this playing stealing alot of pots with 'air'. So did I just make the wrong move by re-raising with a shove? I only min bet this hand because I'm not married to it, and if someone came over the top 3x/4x I likely would have folded. is it bad play with not squeezing hard enough?

 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 02:48 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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He called you with bottom pair when you had top pair top kicker. What's the problem?
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 03:27 PM
(#3)
enjaydub's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 9
just wondering if moving a bigger bet against a loose aggressive player would've been better. I didn't like my choice to min bet with him flat calling.
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 03:39 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
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Is a minbet different from your standard bet? If you had AA would you minbet, if you had 88 would you minbet, if you were on a pure steal would you minbet? If a minbet is your standard there's no need to deviate from it. However if your standard is 2.5x or 3x there's no reason to deviate and minbet here.
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 06:35 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Is a minbet different from your standard bet? If you had AA would you minbet, if you had 88 would you minbet, if you were on a pure steal would you minbet? If a minbet is your standard there's no need to deviate from it. However if your standard is 2.5x or 3x there's no reason to deviate and minbet here.
+1
 
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Thu Jun 16, 2011, 06:48 PM
(#6)
enjaydub's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 9
cheers. sound explanation....stickin to your own plan is always the right way I suppose
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 01:08 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enjaydub View Post
Got a little unlucky I suppose. After playing about 30 hands at this table, I was noticing this playing stealing alot of pots with 'air'. So did I just make the wrong move by re-raising with a shove? I only min bet this hand because I'm not married to it, and if someone came over the top 3x/4x I likely would have folded. is it bad play with not squeezing hard enough?

1) I hate the min raise here, with the intent of folding to any sizable Re-Raise.

You start with a bit over 20BB in your stack, so while you are not "short", that min raise out of position is roughly equal to 10% of your chips. A limp is only about 5%, and is much less damaging to your stack if you have to fold.

Were your hand one you could easily commit to pre-flop, I can "see" the min raise, but more often that min raise simply encourages the same people to come along who would have if you limped, but it costs you double the amount.

Either raise a larger "standard" amount (2.5 to 4x BB), or limp.

(As noted by others above, if your "standard" oop raise was a min raise, then it does have more reason. The fact is though, an oop min raise is rarely a good idea anyway for a wwide variety of reasons, so you may waant to re-evaluate your thinking if that IS your "standard" play)

2) I hate your open check on the flop.

You had a loose pre-flop caller, who has exhibited overly aggressive "steal" betting patterns.
The flop came A hi, giving you top pr/2nd kicker on an AK8 board with 2 diamonds.
The pot (1600) on the flop represented about 20% to 25% of the stack you started the hand with, so while it wasn't "huge", it was a pretty decent size.

"Slow playing" is really only a good idea if you hold a hand whih has a very strong chance of being the best. He was loose enough to play K8/88/A8 versus your raise, wasn't he? AK/AA/KK is less likely because he didn't re-pop pre-flop; AND...
There is a strong likelohood that the free card you MIGHT give by checking will not result in an opponent haveing a good chance to draw out on you; AND...
The pot must not already be large (or else you are better off betting for more value if called, but are "satisified" with the pot size if all opponents fold, see?).

3) I have no issue whatsoever with your jam over his 1k bet into the 1600 pot.

You note he was loose, and was prone to steal with "air".
While I see your flop check as a "mistake", I am pretty sure your intent by checking was to induce a bet from that particular opponent so you COULD shove over him.
Above I noted the negatives of slow playing this hand on this flop, but another "requirement" for slow playing is that you must have pretty good reasons to think that by checking someone will bet for you, AND that by betting you may cause someone to fold who would otherwise have bet (thus putting more value in for you) if you check.
Based on the info you provided here, this seems like exactly the sort of person, holding exactly the sort of hand, which makes a check-raise jam on your semi-short stack a pretty decent move.

NOTE: I do NOT think the risk of potentially letting him "catch up" makes the check-raise a good plan before you do it, but when presented with the situation you were given it seems exactly the right thing to do.

So...

I would think that as long as you are satisified with your read on this opponent, your hand was completely good enough to make this move on your stack size.

After that, it is all down to luck whether he wins with his cheese hand.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 01:11 AM..
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:14 PM
(#8)
enjaydub's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 9
Thanks JD. That puts alot of my thinking down in writing! The play was all down to the read I had on the opponent. I make sense of what you have agreed and disagreed with in regards to playing this way without the read I had.

I appreciate the thought you put in to your response! It certaintly helps in many other situations I find myself in at other tables
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 12:48 PM
(#9)
siberianex's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 38
I actually liked the way you played this hand, with the stack you have, a min bet is perfect imo.
Limping is not great with this stack unless you are limping with the intent of shoving all in if someone raises your limp.
On the flop, I just bet, he looks like a loose passive player and with these types of players, I just bet, bet, bet. You got really unlucky and you are being results oriented. I think you played the hand pretty well, just unlucky.
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 03:56 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siberianex View Post
I actually liked the way you played this hand, with the stack you have, a min bet is perfect imo.
Limping is not great with this stack unless you are limping with the intent of shoving all in if someone raises your limp.
On the flop, I just bet, he looks like a loose passive player and with these types of players, I just bet, bet, bet. You got really unlucky and you are being results oriented. I think you played the hand pretty well, just unlucky.
Yan,

I do not dis-agree that a limp is not the "best" play here. I would much prefer a "standard" 2.5x to 4x raise myself. I still do not like the min raise for almost all players (except the highly advanced and experienced ones, like you).

I say this because AQo is the type of hand that if you do enter the pot for just about ANY raise, the OP's 20BB stack, plus the approaching blind increase which will move the OP into the Red Zone (per M theory), means he really shouldn't be raising AQo at all if there are "concerns" re putting 'em all in and committing. The way I see it, the min raise CAN be effective for advanced players, but for middle level and lower players, the more "ABC" move is a standard raise because that makes it EASIER to commit.

AQo is hardly a "world beater", but it isn't a total cheese hand either; a raise in MP is perfectly acceptable with that hand, and is going to give pretty solid +eV. Why seek to make post-flop decisions HARDER by raising the min?

(There ARE reasons, but if you are not aware of them without my putting 'em up, then you probably could not identify 'em in the heat of the moment)

Since the OP has expressed a bit of un-willingness to commit with a hand as "weak" as AQo, but since he also seems to realize that this hand has too much value to FOLD on his stack size, I think that a LIMP would be the prefered 2nd option. The benefits of the limp is that it keeps the pot small, and again makes a potential FOLD easier after the flop.

Obviously, a 20BB stack should NOT be open folding AQo from MP often at all, so I'd place the min raise as 3rd best, with a fold a distant 4th.

To me, it is all about makign subsequent decisions easier.
 

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