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I think I played the hand too passively

I think I played the hand too passively - Fri Jun 17, 2011, 03:44 AM
SlycatA8's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
ShYloKe(SB) $49.35 - VP:15 PFR:9 AF:0.8 W:21|33 STL:33|100 3B:0|100 CB:67|0
PPSTU(BB) $50.25 - VP:19 PFR:2 AF:1.8 W:18|33 STL:20|100 3B:0| CB:0|50
Tommie07(MP) $70.72 - VP:43 PFR:5 AF:2.3 W:18|43 STL:33|33 3B:0|100 CB:100|50
designrbag(MP) $47.20 - VP:23 PFR:0 AF:0 W:50|100 STL:|100 3B:0|100 CB:
WitchfinderG(MP) $55.55 - VP:50 PFR:17 AF:Inf. W:0| STL:0| 3B:100| CB:
kiddarvada(MP) $41.66 - VP:31 PFR:15 AF:4.5 W:18|25 STL:71|0 3B:0|100 CB:100|100
killadrilla(MP) $56.25 - VP:38 PFR:0 AF:3.0 W:50|100 STL:0| 3B:0| CB:|0
Me(BTN) $85.67 - VP:16 PFR:11 AF:2.7 W:35|40 STL:35|71 3B:4|0 CB:94|33

Pre Flop: Me(BTN) with [4d,4s]
Tommie07(MP) calls 0.50, designrbag(MP) folds, WitchfinderG(MP) calls 0.50, kiddarvada(MP) folds, killadrilla(MP) calls 0.50, Me(BTN) calls 0.50, ShYloKe(SB) calls 0.25, PPSTU(BB) checks

In my mind I figure that I've been playing really tight and that even if I didn't flop the set like I was hoping I could still bet the flop and get respect or float a player in position.

Flop: (9d,Qd,2d) (6 players)
ShYloKe(SB) checks, PPSTU(BB) checks, Tommie07(MP) checks, WitchfinderG(MP) checks, killadrilla(LP) checks, Me(BTN) checks

Everyone checks I was hoping that Tommie or Killadrilla had some kind of marginal hand to bet for me. I had seen them slowplay good hands before and I talk myself out of my pre-flop plan.

Turn: 4c (6 players)
ShYloKe(SB) checks, PPSTU(BB) checks, Tommie07(MP) bets 1, WitchfinderG(MP) folds, killadrilla(LP) folds, Me(BTN) calls 1, ShYloKe(SB) folds, PPSTU(BB) folds

This is where I started to kick myself. When I saw Tommie bet the turn I knew he a good enough to call a flop bet, but third pair wasn't looking too attractive so I turned the set and got a weak bet. I think a raise here would have been a better line to take than a flat call.

River: 4h (2 players)
Tommie07(EP) bets 1, Me(BTN) raises 4, Tommie07(EP) folds

Rivered the nuts and here I am with this small pot.

Was there anything, a different line to take with this particular holding to maximize my profit.

Me(BTN) wins 6.65
Returns 3 to Me(BTN)

Last edited by SlycatA8; Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 03:46 AM.. Reason: didn't bold all the right things
Fri Jun 17, 2011, 06:05 AM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Alright, first off, with stats like these, please point me to this particular 50NL table. Or at least tell me what day of the week and time of day it was. 25NL looks like a really tough field compared to this table.

Second, with a small pair, just taking the cheap flop and setmining is fine. That said, I don't like the idea of floating passive players or bluffing an underpair if you weren't an aggressor to begin with. Floating passive players is typically not the ideal strategy because they tend to have something when they bet and they don't like to go away (so the bad hands they show down will actually beat you when you bluff; a lot of people like to complain about the bad calldowns of their opponents when it was really their fault they lost, since they were bluffing a passive player).

On the flop, you're in a multi-way pot with an underpair. It's check/fold time, since getting fancy here just tends to work so seldom that it's not profitable to try. Also, your diamond draw will virtually never be good.

On the turn, you've landed yourself in an interesting spot, because you hit your set, but you're still going to be behind a flopped flush or better set some of the time. I don't think I'd fold here, but I don't think I'd be getting it in, either. If action in front of me were to go bet, raise, I think I'd be throwing the set away. This is just because the number of people in the pot is so big, the liklihood of you being beat is much bigger than it would be if the pot were heads-up.

On the river, all you need to do is bet as much as you think the villain will call, if he has a hand that is considering calling. If he has a busted draw or third pair or something weird like that, and he plans to fold to a raise, it doesn't matter what you raise. You have the nuts, so go for as much as you can. It really doesn't look like the guy has anything, so your sizing isn't bad, but I think I'd bet more anyway. That's debatable, though.

Overall, I think your line was cautious, but good. You didn't make much off of quads for two reasons: Your opponents didn't have anything to call with, and your quads were runner-runner, so you only had one street to get value from. You couldn't have predicted on the flop that you'd make quads, so there was no reason to make the pot big then. I don't think you made any horrendous mistakes. You just couldn't cooler your opponents this time. It happens.
Fri Jun 17, 2011, 10:04 AM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
I agree with Panicky. I think you got just about as much as you could. The person in until the end with you sounds like an A of diamonds. The only way that you could have gotten more was if one of them had the flush, or maybe 2 pair... which for this hand, didn't happen. If you raised the turn, then they most likely fold there and the hand's over then.
Fri Jun 17, 2011, 11:02 AM
SlycatA8's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Thanks thought I didn't do the right steps to maximize my profit for this good hand.......and I'm in the US and with the closer casino 4hrs away I've been looking for a temp home and this was a bodog table last night. Really fishy players. They do a lot of weird things I hadn't been prepared for, but overall they're mostly level 1 thinkers which is cool for me until I get my Bankroll and my skill level up.
Fri Jun 17, 2011, 03:06 PM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
I gotta agree with Panicky pretty much too...

A passive dynamic, you holding a small pp, and it limps to you on the button; that looks like a PERFECT limp/set min place. This is especially true since the limp is "just" 50c and the effective stack size here is $49+.

Flop comes all d, with 2 overs to your 44, and no set. You hold a very weak d in a multi-way pot. Your hand is simply too weak to really expect it to hold a lot of the time if you bet and get even 1 caller. Add in the fact that a big multi-way pot on a highly coordinated board is WAY too risky a spot to try bluffing out everyone, and a bet is pretty hopeless here. If there wer eonly 1 or 2 opponents in, then sure, firing the buttonbet behind checks might have had reason, but not in a pot with this many folks.

The turns hits your 2 out-er for the set, and the UTG limper leads for $1 into the $3 pot. The bettor has some pretty passive stats (0 3B), so I do tend to agree with you here that a raise is not really a "bad" idea on the turn. With the pot at $4 now, you could have easily raised to $2.50 to $4, and still had plenty of room to get away from a big 4bet.

Fact is your set is pretty strong here, but since the Villain left in has a high VPiP with a low PFR number, there does exist a SMALL chance he is on 99 or a flush. The thing is, if you did NOT raise because of these possibilities, I think you are playing a bit in fear of "monsters under the bed". I do not, however, like the idea of firing a larger bet than about $4 into this "threat board".

The spot to get some value into the pot was certainly the turn, but I wouldn't kick myself too much over it. If the turn lead bettor had more "normal" stats with a PFR around 50% of the hands he VP'ed, then I'd say there is nothing seriously wrong with a flat of a small-ish turn bet to play your set like a draw (although I'd still say a small-ish raise would be better, albeit with more "threat" of a bluff 4Bet by that type of player). The fact you rivered quads is really pretty incidental, since I'm pretty sure if you turn raise this guy would have let you know if he held the flush with a 4Bet. If his 4Bet was small enough, you would have still had pretty decent implied odds to draw to your boat. So all around, I think the turn really was a missed chance.

The river play is pretty "standard" tbh...

He probably had made his turn bet with something like a 1 paired Q or the Ad, and when you called that he probably felt you were on the come. When the 4th d didnt show, he bets a tiny fraction of the pot ($1 into a $5 pot, 20%) in hopes you now "give up" your busted draw. With the nut hand you raise for value, and he folds.

I think the amount you left on the table here was probably pretty small in the overall scheme of things (~$3, since he is all but FORCED to make the crying call of your river raise if he held the flush)), but the BIG drawback of not raising the turn is that you potentially let a pretty passive player set his own price to draw against you (if he did have the Ad). His stats indicate that he is highly un-likely to try a big bluff move in this small pot (still small even after his turn lead), so you probably want to raise the turn yourself to give him a chance to make a "mistake".

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 03:11 PM..

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