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Who is the biggest moron?

 
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Who is the biggest moron? - Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:22 PM
(#1)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Okay, I'm at a 0,02/0,05 table.

I lost a pot earlier on against the villain, who is sitting there withe hes goldstars hanging on his picture, where I had KK and he had AA, and I played badly so he doubled up on me (about $2). So i want my money back from him

The villain is a guy (or girl) who I have seen for about 100 hands. He´s TAG. So he raised from UTG and I know he's got he's got a big pair or a Ak AQ, something like that (I watched the videon here on hand reading, very helpful). I am on the button with crap, 2 4 os.

But now I'm thinking, I know what he's got. I'm not playing really loose so he won't put me on 2 4 when I call. So when the flop goes my way I can really **** him over.

The flop gives me an open ended straight draw. He bets half the pot, I call. He bets on the turn, I call. And he hit my straight on the river. He bets, I reraise him allin, he calls and I am verry happy



The chat:
valik2388: ****ing moron
unha2011: ty

But who is the bigger moron here? Isn't it a good play against a player like that to call once in a while with a crappy hand? I was thinking that maybe you are more likely too beat him good with low cards than with high cards. Because if I only call him with the same range, a flop that would be good for me, will also probaly will be good for him. So I would be more uncomfortable with betting against him in that situation. But if I call him with cards completely out of his range, then it's pretty easy to read the play. Bad flop, you go away and fold, good flop you let him bet. So my main question here is what is your point of view on that?

And in retrospect, isn't his play with the 10 10 pretty bad? He has an overcard on the flop, an opponent who keeps calling, and then a reraise on the turn when there"s an A on the river....Okay he probably didn't expect the 2 4 , but an A or a Q should have been something to consider.

And finally...I also watched the 6-max video on the site, also very helpful. At first I went to the table with a small stack. But on the video he said jsut got to the table with the max, so you cover other players (more value in that), I've been doing that ever since and thats a much more relaxing way of playing.

Last edited by unha2011; Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32 PM..
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:32 PM
(#2)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
The chat"s just sour grapes. ignore it. That's a tough beat for someone with a hand, so I wouldn't worry about it. You took a chance and it paid off, though I wouldn't recommend doing this too often.
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
(#3)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Oh the verbal abuse I can take that, I just say ty and when I've had enough or just don't want too see it I simply call a mod and let them handle it.
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:37 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Calling on the turn is mathematically bad. So, if you thought that there would be value in making yourself look like a moron, this was a pretty good way to do that (and I say that in all seriousness; some people intentionally make bad plays because they think it will pay off down the road).

There are a lot of reasons people don't play 42o the way you did. To sum them all up, it's hard enough to win at poker when you just focus on playing good hands. Throwing hands like 42o in just makes a tough job even tougher.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jun 18, 2011 at 07:25 PM.. Reason: Deleted some misinformation
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:38 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
You took a chance and it paid off, though I wouldn't recommend doing this too often.
It in fact did not pay off. This play loses money in the long run.
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 08:57 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You might have implied odds to call the flop, but not the turn.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jun 18, 2011 at 07:25 PM.. Reason: Deleted some misinformation
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:17 PM
(#7)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
It in fact did not pay off. This play loses money in the long run.
Well it did pay off, but it won't pay off in the long run, I understand that.

But that's if if you do this play every time, and don't worry I won't do that. It's just I had position and I felt like it to try something.

And thx for the math, I'll be looking into that more when I have the time and the stomach for it. But in this hand I had so much fun, it would have been worth the $1 if it didn't work out (I only play with money I won at pso anyway, so that's training money for me)

But what about this "math". If two players are both playing very tight, when they are both in the same hand the will probably have about the same hand, One has AK the other AQs, or one has AA the other QQ. So maybe maybe 50% of the time the first player wins, 50% the other one (I know this is not real math, but it's just for reasoning)

And there is a big chance that u will both like the board, so probably it will be a big pot, which u can win or loose.

But if you play small cards, the odds can be not that bad preflop. And if the opening raise is small, you can get in cheap, you can get out easy if the flop doesn't work for you. And if it works out the oponnent can build the pot for you.

Last edited by unha2011; Fri Jun 17, 2011 at 09:20 PM..
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:25 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
It in fact did not pay off. This play loses money in the long run.
+1

2 4 off to a 3-bet from UTG position is an auto-muck preflop.

You got extremely lucky because any bet over 16% of the pot after the flop or over 8% after the turn, makes your hand -EV. I was surprised that they didn't flip over AQ or KK..... you got extremely lucky, which will not happen in the long run (the odds are tremendously against you with that hand).
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:37 PM
(#9)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
+1

2 4 off to a 3-bet from UTG position is an auto-muck preflop.

You got extremely lucky because any bet over 16% of the pot after the flop or over 8% after the turn, makes your hand -EV. I was surprised that they didn't flip over AQ or KK..... you got extremely lucky, which will not happen in the long run (the odds are tremendously against you with that hand).
Okay, so if you have an open ended straight draw on the flop and someone bets you can always throw your cards away? Because the chance of someone betting 16% of the pot are very slim.

If he had the AQ he probably would have bet bigger on the flop that's what he did earlier on). So the way he bet did tell me that he was scared of something (not that I paid that much attention to that). If he would have bet bigger on the flop I probably would have folded.
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:45 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Do some research on pot odds if you don't have that idea down. It'll help your table math a lot. In this case, we're talking about implied odds, which is a somewhat more advanced concept. Regardless of your preflop action, you did not have pot odds to call on the flop. Since you did call, you were relying on implied odds to make your play profitable. Since your opponent bet on the turn, even if you won their entire stack, you would not have made a +EV play, because you needed to make more money from them than they had available. Therefore, the fact that you did win their entire stack was still a losing play. You made a losing play here, because even with an open-ended straight draw, you didn't make enough money to pay for all of the times that you don't make your straight.

I'm not saying that calling with 42o preflop was a losing play (although it very likely was), because I can't mathematically prove it. I can mathematically prove that your post-flop play did not pay off, and was therefore incorrect if your goal is to make money.
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 09:49 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,816
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if he has AQ, then he shouldn't bet more... he should want to keep any draws in the hand, as he's ahead. If he bets more, people can drop... which means he'll lose value on the hand. He was scared of you having AA, KK, QQ or maybe AQs, because those are about the only hands to call a raise to 3BB from UTG, from the button.

If you have over cards to the board, then that % will be higher.... take your outs X 4% after the flop, or outs X 2% after the turn. If your opponent bets more than that % of the pot.... it is a negative return for you over time, so you should fold, until you get a hand with better odds (you're ahead).
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 10:05 PM
(#12)
unha2011's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 25
I know the terms pot ods and implied odds, I just didn't look into the exact formula yet. I have a list of chances of hands flop to turn and flop to river. For example a flushdraw has 4:1 flop to turn and 2:1 flop to river. So I just relate that to the bet and the size of the pot (that's probably the formula for it, but I just don't have that yet exactly).

I know in the end this is just a lucky hand (but it was fun). But I do think that you have to play these kinds of hands once in a while, as long as you don't get busted out on it. Maybe just to get lucky once in a while (great feeling ) or maybe to confuse the rest of the table end play with your table image.....but I'll think about some more.

Thx for your replies
 
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Fri Jun 17, 2011, 10:46 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You're welcome. The only thing I have left to say is, playing the best possible straightforward ABC poker, with no fancy plays thrown in to keep opponents guessing, is not easy. It's a difficult thing to do, mastering the fundamentals of poker (let alone the fanciest, most complex plays). People who master the absolute basics, however, are in the vast minority, and probably make money in abundance. If you can get good at that, you'd be surprised how little you need to get fancy to beat the game.
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 12:07 AM
(#14)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
You're welcome. The only thing I have left to say is, playing the best possible straightforward ABC poker, with no fancy plays thrown in to keep opponents guessing, is not easy. It's a difficult thing to do, mastering the fundamentals of poker (let alone the fanciest, most complex plays). People who master the absolute basics, however, are in the vast minority, and probably make money in abundance. If you can get good at that, you'd be surprised how little you need to get fancy to beat the game.
Never in a million years did I expect to see a statement like that from you. But I'm in 100% agreement
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 10:27 AM
(#15)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
if he has AQ, then he shouldn't bet more... he should want to keep any draws in the hand, as he's ahead. If he bets more, people can drop... which means he'll lose value on the hand. He was scared of you having AA, KK, QQ or maybe AQs, because those are about the only hands to call a raise to 3BB from UTG, from the button.

If you have over cards to the board, then that % will be higher.... take your outs X 4% after the flop, or outs X 2% after the turn. If your opponent bets more than that % of the pot.... it is a negative return for you over time, so you should fold, until you get a hand with better odds (you're ahead).
If your statement here is correct, then the bad play was surely Valik's as he carried on betting on a hand he should have assumed ( from your statement ) was well and truely crushed ?

 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 02:29 PM
(#16)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
2 4 off to a 3-bet from UTG position is an auto-muck preflop.
That wasn't a 3-bet. It's a regular raise.

I don't like the preflop call simply because the raiser's stack is so shallow and the preflop implied odds suck. Against a weak player, which he clearly is, I'd make a call like that in position from time to time. The idea is to either push him off a missed AK/AQ/TT/JJ hand or bust him big when he's got an overpair. 24 offsuit is a terrible terrible hand, so most of its value lies in bluffing. If he's the kind of player you can easily bluff, calling with any two in position is totally profitable. If he's the kind of guy who gets married to his top 10 hand, I want something with a little more value. Give it to me suited. The idea is to be able to outplay the guy postflop because you know what he has and how he plays.

On the flop you have to at least call. This is about the best flop you can hope for. You can raise if you think a semi-bluff is profitable. (Need decent fold equity. Can you make him fold a hand like AK or TT here?) You have an open ender, which needs about 4 to 1 odds on any card and about 2 to 1 on both cards to break even. You're getting 3 to 1 on a call which while not break even yet, you have a super disguised draw, and it should be easy to get the extra money you need. Your implied odds are definitely there.

Same goes for the turn. You're getting 3 to 1 and you need 4 to 1 to break even. The way this guy's betting, you are going to get paid off if you hit. The only cards you need to worry about are the ace of clubs and the 6 of clubs, as they may be too scary.

Do you know how this guy responds to the 3rd flush card hitting the river? If he always folds then I think you can bluff all clubs. This increases the number of good cards that can come on the river, making the turn an auto call. If he doesn't scare off river flushes, then you still have the implied odds on your tricky straight.

Honestly I like how you played the hand. The preflop call wasn't my favorite just because that guy was playing only 60 BBs. (Sign of a fish in general, by the way) But postflop was fine. Yeah, a little passive, but he was giving you a decent price.
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#17)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
And in answer to your question I think UTG was the bigger moron. He should have checked either the flop or turn. Unless he was turning TT into a bluff... but then what the hell is he doing on the river trying to catch your busted backdoor flush draw that you never have because you probably have the ace anyway...?
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 07:15 PM
(#18)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
On the flop you have to at least call. This is about the best flop you can hope for... Your implied odds are definitely there.
Calling the flop was okay given the stacks, imo. Raising makes some sense, but I'm not positive that math would be actually be +EV. If the flop is good for your hand, that is never a stand-alone reason to commit, or even to call one bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Same goes for the turn.
Not true. The reason for that is because the Hero here still needs to get paid off for the flop call, which, without rechecking my math, I think is impossible even if the villain minbets on the turn.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jun 18, 2011 at 07:59 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 18, 2011, 07:23 PM
(#19)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Okay, I rechecked my math, and it looks like my math on page one is still iffy, so I think I'll just delete it. Apparently I need more practice calculating pot odds. Anyway, after the turn bet, the amount that the Hero needs to extract on the river is roughly $2.76 in order to make the calldown profitable. The Villain does not have that much behind after the turn bet, so the play is -EV, although it looks like the flop call was better than I initially thought. A turn fold is definitely called for, though.
 

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