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JJ out of position early in SNG

 
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JJ out of position early in SNG - Sun Jun 19, 2011, 09:43 PM
(#1)
Krazula's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 24
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This hand happend 6 hands into a 2+.20 10person SNG we start with 1500 chips and everyone's stack was still about 1500 except for the UTG who was down to about 610 and anothe player not involved in the hand who had about 2200, sorry I can't use replayer because this wasn't played on stars. This is in the first blind level, 5/10 I don't have any reads on anyone at the table yet.

I was dealt 2red Jacks in the small blind.
UTG limped
UTG+2 raised 10x to 100
UTG+3 called
Button called
I called
BB folded
UTG called

So 5people including me saw the flop and there was already 510 chips in the pot.

Flop comes 22T, two clubs and a heart

I check
UTG shoves allin for his remaining 510chips
UTG+2, the preflop raiser, calls
UTG+3 and the Button fold
I fold

My thinking preflop was that UTG who limped was probably on a pretty weak hand after he called I thought he was probably on a small pocket pair trying to set mine, or maybe just a weaker player with midling suited connectors.
I thought UTG+2 who raised 10x from an early position probably had a premium hand, either a pair beating my jacks or maybe AK.
I didn't know how I should range the button.
I decided to call with my JJ mostly to set mine, I thought the raiser had a higher pair and there was a good chance he'd stack off if I hit a J on the flop.

On the flop when UTG shoved I didn't really know what to think.
Whent UTG+2 called I figured he probably did have that overpair so I decided to fold.

As it turned out the UTG had KT of hearts and UTG+2 had 99, so I ended up folding what was the best hand at the time.

Not that its relevant, but just to appease any curiosity you might have, The turn card was a 9 giving UTG+2 nines full, and the river was a J, which would have given me jacks full.

I'm not concerned about the results, because results are wild and influence heavily by luck in the short term, but I'm uncertain about how I played the hand both preflop and on the flop. I look forward to your analysis and hope that this is easy enough to understand without the replayer.
 
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Sun Jun 19, 2011, 10:11 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Given that you aren't providing a hand history, well done with the info provided. A little difficult to read, though.

Here's where you made the mistake in the hand, I think. When action came to you preflop, did you think ahead to the flop? Did you question how the action might play out, and consider what you would be doing with your hand in each scenario? Given that your call would guarantee an SPR of 3 or less (meaning that anybody who would continue on the flop could easily be shoving it), did you consider whether or not you'd ever be calling a shove there? How often do you think there'd be a shove in front of you? Anticipating your post-flop decisions is important when making preflop decisions.
 
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Sun Jun 19, 2011, 11:01 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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For me, whenevr I see something "non-standard", I really like to fall back on my informational assets.

That 10x raise is definately non-standard, even with blinds at 5/10 with 1500 start stacks. That number of callers is pretty non-standard too. So the thing you have to ask yourself is "what sort of info do I have upon which to base my decision".

First, it is early in the event, so you haven't really got effect range reads yet. This is a "negative" piece of information that you really need to be aware of, since having the reads will mean you would be more aware if someone is in who might limp QQ+ in a multi-way pot, and/or what the range is for the initial raiser.

That negative info bit leads you to "fall back" upon what you knw; YOUR hand's general relative strength.

JJ is a good hand, but versus a 10x raiser, plus all those callers, it may well be up against a BETTER hand. Even if it isn;t up against better now, well over half the time at least 1 over card will come on the flop, making your JJ very difficult to play without reads. You seem to recognize this, and elect to CALL, thus turning JJ into a hand that is more like 77/88. Nuttin' wrong with that...

Next thing you know are the stack sizes. 1500 chips with blinds at 5/10 is a pretty deep stack. CALLING a 100 chip bet to set mine is only going to cost about 7% of your stack. With the (likely) greater chances of an implied odds pay off if you do hit a set, that 7% isn't all THAT much, so long as you are not likely to get "married" to the JJ too strongly. If you KNOW this ahead of time, and are not going to stack off on a CALL without a strong hand, then you are prepared for what might come, so nuttin' wrong with what you did.

Next bit of info you have is the fact that it generally takes a BIGGER hand to win in a multi-way pot. When you see the 22T flop, the multi-way nature of the pot means an A2 might be there, TT might be there, QQ+ might be there. That means eleasing your 1 pair hand, even an over pair to the board, is NOT the worst thing you can do when you've got only 7% of your stack in, have no set, and lack reads on opponents. Even the best players fold the best hand some of the time.

Finally, since you SAW the shown down hands, you now have more info upon which to build your "book" on your opponents. Based on the hands shown, and the strength of those hands (KT/99), and the willingness to not only call a BIG raise, but then commit a large portion of the stacks in play, on a hand that isn;t even top/top. This means the NEXT time you see this action at this table, you will probably know that JJ is likely worth a small-ish RE-RAISE for value versus these opponents.

...but you did NOT know that at the time you had to make your decision. I think you played the hand extremely well given the information you did have.
 
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Sun Jun 19, 2011, 11:35 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If you called purely with the intent to setmine, then the play was okay. I wouldn't say that implied odds were there in abundance, since you'd have to actually stack someone to really make the play good. People do have the potential to put that many chips in the pot, and then shut down completely when they don't like the flop. They also have a chance to outflop a set. As soon as you get involved in that big of a pot without a plan, you're setting yourself up for hard times.
 
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Sun Jun 19, 2011, 11:46 PM
(#5)
Krazula's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 24
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Thanks for the analysis. Do you have any advice on how I could express the information better? The place that I play doesn't provide hand histories in a format that I can just copy and paste, I think I provided all the relevant information, but is there a way I can make it easier to understand?

I'm glad I seemed to play that hand right, I guess it was the results that had me questioning myself. I need to be less results oriented and focus more on my decision making. Even though it sounds like I played the hand well there is one mistake that I made, I only planned for some of the possiblities that would come on the flop, I planned on what to do if I hit a jack, and what to do if there is no jack and one or more overcards, but I did not plan on what to do if there were no overcards and a shove, that lack of preparation is what made me uncertain of what to do and made me question both my preflop and flop plays.
 
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my 2 cents - Mon Jun 20, 2011, 12:09 AM
(#6)
MSgtBakes's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 38
There's nothing wrong with the way you played the hand. It sounds like you were aware that the raiser could likely have a premium pair that beat JJ. You correctly deduced that the weak limper was just that. You called with the intent of playing "no set, no bet" and you stuck to that. Well done.

You could have 3-bet the raiser preflop, and found yourself in the predicament of holding an overpair to the board and no idea if your hand is good. That's a horrible spot.

You could have raised to isolate the all-in player on the flop and found yourself facing a re-raise from the original raiser, what are you going to do there, fold? That's not great either.

With no reads, give credit and fold your hand. When he turns over the 9's, widen his range and get it in with him when you feel like you're ahead. Nothing worse than fearing you're behind and then paying to find out you're right. Good fold, well played. Good luck!
 
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Mon Jun 20, 2011, 12:12 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If it doesn't provide hand histories and there's nothing to convert, then maybe just break the info apart for easy reference. Your presentation wasn't bad, but I'll try and reformat it to see if I can show a slightly better system.

Game: $2 10 person SNG w/ T1500 starting stacks, blinds T5/T10 (about 6 hands in)

Action: UTG (610) limps, UTG+2 (1500) raise to 100, UTG+3 (1500) calls, BU (1500) calls, I (, 1500) call, UTG calls.

Flop (T505):

I check, UTG shoves 510, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, me???

@Bakes, again, if you're not anticipating the flop action before you put money in the pot, then you're making a mistake. And although the 'no set, no bet' rule might actually be pretty +EV here, setmining is rarely that simple. For example, if there were no callers to the 10x open, I'd actually call the preflop call a weak play. If starting stacks were T1000, same deal. If the blinds were one level higher, then the play becomes pretty questionable.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Mon Jun 20, 2011 at 12:16 AM..
 
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This case, right fold - Mon Jun 20, 2011, 12:51 AM
(#8)
MSgtBakes's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
@Bakes, again, if you're not anticipating the flop action before you put money in the pot, then you're making a mistake. And although the 'no set, no bet' rule might actually be pretty +EV here, setmining is rarely that simple. For example, if there were no callers to the 10x open, I'd actually call the preflop call a weak play. If starting stacks were T1000, same deal. If the blinds were one level higher, then the play becomes pretty questionable.
Indeed, a plan is crucial. In this case our hero had a clear plan and a good initial read, "I thought UTG+2 who raised 10x from an early position probably had a premium hand, either a pair beating my jacks or maybe AK."

He had a solid post flop plan: "I decided to call with my JJ mostly to set mine, I thought the raiser had a higher pair and there was a good chance he'd stack off if I hit a J on the flop.

"Setmining is that simple, call with the intention of flopping a set, fold if you don't." The discipline to stick to it, especially when the flop leaves you an overpair to the board, is the part that's not easy.

I didn't entertain other scenarios with levels or stack sizes because they aren't relevant to this hand, but, there are absolutely circumstances where a flat call with JJ would be a mistake. This case isn't, despite the fact that in the end it was the best hand.
 
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Mon Jun 20, 2011, 01:04 AM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgtBakes View Post
Indeed, a plan is crucial. In this case our hero had a clear plan...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazula View Post
I did not plan on what to do if there were no overcards and a shove, that lack of preparation is what made me uncertain of what to do and made me question both my preflop and flop plays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgtBakes View Post
...and a good initial read
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazula View Post
This is in the first blind level, 5/10 I don't have any reads on anyone at the table yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgtBakes View Post
"Setmining is that simple, call with the intention of flopping a set, fold if you don't." The discipline to stick to it, especially when the flop leaves you an overpair to the board, is the part that's not easy.
Had UTG shoved and everyone folded back to the Hero, I agree that sticking to the 'no set, no bet' rule would be hard. I also think it would be bad.

I think that you're trying too hard to force a point, Bakes. I agree with you in that the Hero's actions were fine. You don't need to belittle my impressions to get your point across.
 
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Ok brother - Mon Jun 20, 2011, 01:18 AM
(#10)
MSgtBakes's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 38
I meant no offense. I spent 26 years in the miltary brother, if I overstate a point, it's an old habit and not meant to berate or belittle anyone. We agree this hand was played about as well as it could be. That's the bottom line.
 
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?? - Mon Jun 20, 2011, 06:50 AM
(#11)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Hey Krazula= go to www.flopturn river.com- and you can convert the hand- and post-- there a quite a few hand converters out there - free--

Like JD said - by flatting- you are basically devaluing your hand- and im not a huge fan of set mining with JJ-- its just too strong- sure you have no reads- and although in relation to the blinds, 100 is a huge raise- is very common in these- as -imo- many people do not know how to bet at 5/10 10/20,15/30--etc.

-- if im gonna play them in this spot- imma 3 betting -atleast get the limper out- and deny the BB odds to call-- and seeing as how you are in the SB-and first to act-- being OOP- in a multiway pot- is actually to your advantage--by betting big on the flop-if no overcards come-- or, as it is a 10 man tourney- and obv. maniac table-- let these fools fight it out early- and wait for a better spot - by folding preflop-- jmo--
 
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Mon Jun 20, 2011, 10:18 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If you called purely with the intent to setmine, then the play was okay. I wouldn't say that implied odds were there in abundance, since you'd have to actually stack someone to really make the play good. People do have the potential to put that many chips in the pot, and then shut down completely when they don't like the flop. They also have a chance to outflop a set. As soon as you get involved in that big of a pot without a plan, you're setting yourself up for hard times.
implied odds are likely to be pretty good in this given hand because:

A) there was a large non standard pre-flop raise
B) there were multiple callers of that raise

While the raise to 100 is not a huge part of any given stack, those factors bode well for someone making a "mistake" in thinking a top pair is good versus a flopped set of J's. Risky 100 for a chance to perhaps take at LEAST a 500 chip pot (what's in there), AND the high likelihood of someone paying off an additional 500+ equates to pretty solid implied odds.
 
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Mon Jun 20, 2011, 10:44 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Risky 100 for a chance to perhaps take at LEAST a 500 chip pot (what's in there),
310
 
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Tue Jun 21, 2011, 02:06 AM
(#14)
Krazula's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 24
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
Hey Krazula= go to www.flopturn river.com- and you can convert the hand- and post-- there a quite a few hand converters out there - free--

Like JD said - by flatting- you are basically devaluing your hand- and im not a huge fan of set mining with JJ-- its just too strong- sure you have no reads- and although in relation to the blinds, 100 is a huge raise- is very common in these- as -imo- many people do not know how to bet at 5/10 10/20,15/30--etc.

-- if im gonna play them in this spot- imma 3 betting -atleast get the limper out- and deny the BB odds to call-- and seeing as how you are in the SB-and first to act-- being OOP- in a multiway pot- is actually to your advantage--by betting big on the flop-if no overcards come-- or, as it is a 10 man tourney- and obv. maniac table-- let these fools fight it out early- and wait for a better spot - by folding preflop-- jmo--
Thanks for the advice on the converter, unfortunately it doesn't work for me though. The reason I didn't 3bet is because I suspected my jacks were no good at the moment, I typically don't set mine with them but 3betting when I think I'm behind seems like suicide. Yes it obviously was a maniac table, but it was only a few hands into the event and it didn't become obvious until after this hand. I understand the logic of folding this spot, and I considered it, but I thought if I hit a jack that it was likely someone would give me their stack.
 
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Tue Jun 21, 2011, 05:12 PM
(#15)
jf70's Avatar
Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
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I probably would've shoved on the flop, tbh -- no overcards just looks too good. A small stack could well be shoving a T there, and 2 just doesn't seem likely. Tough spot, though. Definitely a good case for folding to protect your stack.
 
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Tue Jun 21, 2011, 08:56 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jf70 View Post
I probably would've shoved on the flop, tbh -- no overcards just looks too good. A small stack could well be shoving a T there, and 2 just doesn't seem likely. Tough spot, though. Definitely a good case for folding to protect your stack.
Yeah JF70...

I can "see" getting aggro here, but only if you are also going to 3Bet pre.

If you are going to call, thus keeping the pot semi small pre flop, then I see nuttin wrong with the hand as played by the OP.

...but I too would be hard pressed not to jam this flop.
 
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Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:12 PM
(#17)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Can jam, call, or even fold pre. 3-betting to set up a flop shove is an option too. Depending on how I'm playing I might choose any of them. If I've been obviously loose I'm shipping for value, expecting to get snapped by a hand like 88 or AT. If I haven't played a hand and have a super tight image I might 3-bet small, an absolutely terrifying bet that also sets up a flop shove. If I've been playing standard TAGgish I like calling to setmine with a super deceptive hand in JJ. Very much depends on my reads on the other players, but I can see any line having some merit preflop as long as you know why you're doing it.

That flop just isn't likely to have hit anything. No one has a 2 here ever*, so your only worries are TT, QQ, KK, AA. Can totally shove for value here as plenty of 77-99, AT-JT type hands can call, and you have to do something before a Q, K, or A hits on the board. They're bad cards for two reasons. They either hit your opponent OR kill your action.

*Yeah it's possible, but it's such a tiny part of their ranges. A2 and 22 are small possibilities.
 

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