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88 in the SB vs light BTN raiser.

 
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88 in the SB vs light BTN raiser. - Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:05 PM
(#1)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t125/t250 Blinds + t30 - 9 players -
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Hero (SB): t15785 M = 24.47
BB: t3505 M = 5.43
UTG: t3908 M = 6.06
UTG+1: t13255 M = 20.55
UTG+2: t5585 M = 8.66
MP1: t7910 M = 12.26
MP2: t2262 M = 3.51
CO: t6357 M = 9.86
BTN: t9055 M = 14.04

Pre Flop: (t645) Hero is SB with 8c 8d
6 folds, BTN raises to t675, Hero raises to t2175, 1 fold, BTN raises to t9025 all in, Hero ?

BTN is 20/20 with an AFq of 100.

Once he gets into a pot he doesn't seem to let go. He has a fold to 3bet of 66% whilst he has opened every BTN and CO since I joined the table. I have notes on him 4betting light in steal and re-steals.

88 doesn't flop too well, normally one or two over cards and im OOP... So I 3bet to take it down now - Would you call in this spot or are you happy to let it go and continue with a decent stack?

Cheers.

Last edited by KyeBuff; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 04:23 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:12 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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if you call, you're either in a race... or worse off, being dominated by a higher pkt pair.

I think this one is one to let go since you've still got a good-sized stack to play with. If you had less chips, then I'd be more tempted to call, but with as many as you'd still have if you fold... I'll try and find a better spot.
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:19 PM
(#3)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
if you call, you're either in a race... or worse off, being dominated by a higher pkt pair.

I think this one is one to let go since you've still got a good-sized stack to play with. If you had less chips, then I'd be more tempted to call, but with as many as you'd still have if you fold... I'll try and find a better spot.
Yeah I guess theres better spots than this but then again I have to defend against his steals and if he is aggressive enough to do this often... I've gotta take a stand.

What would your calling range be? TT+ AJ+?

Last edited by KyeBuff; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 04:23 PM..
 
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?? - Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
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monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
tuff spot with 88 for sure- obv. depends on how i feel at the time- but, calling out of frustration- there- idk- good fold i think- and i mark that guy- and set him up for the same play- when i have JJ + and stack him- then type in chat -- gg nice push--
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 05:23 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
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What are your stats? Do you think he respects your 3-bets? If so fold for sure. If not call. I don't really think that 88 is very different from TT in this spot unless he would do this with 99. Honestly I probably just call rather than 3-bet with 88 preflop to keep the pot small. If he's really aggressive plan on calling all the way down unless the board gets unbearable or you hit your 8 or a straight. 88 will be good unimproved a lot of the time. Being out of position against an aggressive player sucks for sure though.

Let's see, when he shoves you're getting about 1.3 to 1 odds. You need to win about 43% of the time to break even....how wide does his range have to be here? Does he have bluffs in his range?

Also, 3-bet folding a hand that strong is pretty bad, so I'd rather not 3-bet if I intend to fold to a 4-bet, unless I'm 3-betting air.

Last edited by oriholic; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 05:39 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 05:56 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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call at minimum, I usually bet back into him... if he shoves I fold
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 05:59 PM
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KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
What are your stats? Do you think he respects your 3-bets? If so fold for sure. If not call. I don't really think that 88 is very different from TT in this spot unless he would do this with 99. Honestly I probably just call rather than 3-bet with 88 preflop to keep the pot small. If he's really aggressive plan on calling all the way down unless the board gets unbearable or you hit your 8 or a straight. 88 will be good unimproved a lot of the time. Being out of position against an aggressive player sucks for sure though.

Let's see, when he shoves you're getting about 1.3 to 1 odds. You need to win about 43% of the time to break even....how wide does his range have to be here? Does he have bluffs in his range?

Also, 3-bet folding a hand that strong is pretty bad, so I'd rather not 3-bet if I intend to fold to a 4-bet, unless I'm 3-betting air.
My stats are 22/18 AFq 45. I think he would respect my 3bet more if it wasn't in this spot (this was my 2nd 3bet at this table, the other with AK) ... It looked like we we're leveling each other, his 4bet is taking it up a notch though.

Maybe I can call pre but yea, he's gonna apply a lot of pressure post flop. I think his BTN range is near enough ATC however his 4bet range IMO is gonna be 22+ A8+ KJ+ Maybe QJ.

I was never 3bet folding if he came over the top and he showed ATo.. the board double paired K's and 9's to counterfeit my 88.

I ran it through PokerStove

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.405% 52.88% 00.52% 1135514856 11215086.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 46.595% 46.07% 00.52% 989284188 11215086.00 { 22+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, A8o+, KJo+ }

Was happy getting it in, I lose I have just over 20 bigs and if I win I take a commanding stack into the bubble.

Last edited by KyeBuff; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 06:02 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 22, 2011, 06:21 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyeBuff View Post
Was happy getting it in, I lose I have just over 20 bigs and if I win I take a commanding stack into the bubble.
Oh wait, it's close to the bubble? Then you can absolutely 3-bet shove.
 
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Thu Jun 23, 2011, 02:58 AM
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KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Oh wait, it's close to the bubble? Then you can absolutely 3-bet shove.
I did consider this, but thought shoving a 36BB effective stack was a bit spewy... I guess he can only call off with the very top of his range then though, so most of the time we take it down pre.

I do like this line, to avoid difficult post flop decisions and to stop him jamming with a weaker hand and putting me in a tough spot.
 
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Thu Jun 23, 2011, 05:39 AM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Quote:
I did consider this, but thought shoving a 36BB effective stack was a bit spewy
If you 3-bet he's put in shove or fold mode as a call would commit about 1/4 his stack. If you're planning on calling his shove you might as well shove yourself. You want him to have the hard decision, not you.

In a spot like this I might polarize my small 3-betting range to bluffs and monsters and shove anything else I want to reraise with. If my 3-betting range here is total air (especially J3 type hands that are total garbage but have a blocker to his big pairs calling range) and monsters, then I have a very easy decision if he shoves. I'm either way ahead of any conceivable range and snap call or way behind and fold. I don't want to play my strong-but-not-monster value hands that way because it puts me to a tough decision and it's very easy to make a mistake. For instance if he shoves 66 and I fold 88, that sucks! And if he shoves 99 and I call 88 that's even worse! But if I can shove 88 and make him fold 99? Or even a hand like AT, KJ, JTs. Or maybe he calls with 77 or 66? I don't know exactly where his range lies, but I do know that putting him all in will force him to make a very difficult decision with most of his range. He can make a lot of mistakes here. Yes if I polarize like this it will be obvious when I shove that I don't have KK or AA, but I can totally have AK or JJ.

The more I think about it the more I like 3-bet shoving here actually. I might shove something like 77-JJ, A2s+, AT+, K9s+, KQ, QTs+, JTs or something like that, call with a lot of suited connectors and small pairs, and occasionally small 3-bet broadway trash (T2-T4, J2-J5, Q2-Q6) and QQ+.

Last edited by oriholic; Thu Jun 23, 2011 at 05:43 AM..
 
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Thu Jun 23, 2011, 06:54 AM
(#11)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
If you 3-bet he's put in shove or fold mode as a call would commit about 1/4 his stack. If you're planning on calling his shove you might as well shove yourself. You want him to have the hard decision, not you.
Yea I totally agree with this, the only thing that concerned me was stack sizes but like you say if im calling a 3bet it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
In a spot like this I might polarize my small 3-betting range to bluffs and monsters and shove anything else I want to reraise with. If my 3-betting range here is total air (especially J3 type hands that are total garbage but have a blocker to his big pairs calling range) and monsters, then I have a very easy decision if he shoves. I'm either way ahead of any conceivable range and snap call or way behind and fold. I don't want to play my strong-but-not-monster value hands that way because it puts me to a tough decision and it's very easy to make a mistake. For instance if he shoves 66 and I fold 88, that sucks! And if he shoves 99 and I call 88 that's even worse! But if I can shove 88 and make him fold 99? Or even a hand like AT, KJ, JTs. Or maybe he calls with 77 or 66? I don't know exactly where his range lies, but I do know that putting him all in will force him to make a very difficult decision with most of his range. He can make a lot of mistakes here. Yes if I polarize like this it will be obvious when I shove that I don't have KK or AA, but I can totally have AK or JJ.
You've pretty much nailed it tbh in this whole post, although I'm not sure how exploitable making small 3 bets with monsters/trash is... a good player may recognized this and 4bet a lot lighter knowing I'm not always going to wake up with a monster but I definitely agree with what your saying.

I think we just need to merge our range, for example 3betting small with AA-KK sometimes, whilst jamming them another to get called light. I don't think I'd ever jam trash though, if I did I would need a good read on villain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
The more I think about it the more I like 3-bet shoving here actually. I might shove something like 77-JJ, A2s+, AT+, K9s+, KQ, QTs+, JTs or something like that, call with a lot of suited connectors and small pairs, and occasionally small 3-bet broadway trash (T2-T4, J2-J5, Q2-Q6) and QQ+.
This.

Cheers dude, big help.
 

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