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Old
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Play this hand - Thu Nov 07, 2002, 06:58 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
WRGPT email tournament. No-limit holdem. About 1000 players started, maybe more. 8th hand of the tournament. I am interested in your views about how you would have played in this situation.

Everyone roughly 10k stacks. 50/100 blinds with no ante. The table is 10 handed and I am on the button with A :h: A :c: .

Folded to the cut-off who limps in. I raise the pot size to $450. BB calls and the cut-off calls. Pot size is now $1400.

Cut-off has 10200 left, BB has 8950 left, and I have 9900 remaining.

FLOP = 6 :h: J :h: 6 :d:

BB checks. The cut-off bets the pot size of $1400.

What we know about the cut-off - During the first 7 hands, I only saw them see one flop and that was by checking in the BB. They then bet the pot on both the flop and turn, winning without a showdown.

What we know about the BB - During the first 7 hands we saw them enter 2 pots. 1 with a raise to $200 and 1 with a limp. They did not reach showdown either time as they folded on the flop/turn, giving up the pot.

It's you to act. $2800 in the pot, $1400 to call, 9.9k in your stack with your 2 opponents having similar sized stacks, and the BB still to act behind you. How do you plan to play the hand from now on, and what are your reasons/thinking behind each action?
 
Old
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 07:04 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
All-in. Fatten up or avoid further dealing with this absurd format.
 
Old
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 07:14 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
I can't put them on a 6.

I don't know enough about them to put them on a JJ.

I have to put them on an AJ, KJ, or a pure steal.


Randall


Of course one of the most common ways I bust out of a tourney is for someone to play Q6 to my pot-sized preflop raise, then catch 66x, so what do I know.
 
Old
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 07:39 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Cut off limped in with middle hearts. You need another heart. Braveheart??


8O

'Goddess
 
Old
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 07:46 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
I'm putting the cutoff on AJ or 2 big hearts, not JJ with the preflop limp.
If they have 66 that's just tough.

All-in knocks them (perhaps) off their flush draw, but doesn't milk the situation. It doesn't milk them if they have AJ/KJ either.

Meantime, the BB could have many hands including a 6x. WRGPT is madness.

So ... raise a good chunk. 1500, say.
If the BB gets excited, fold. They have a 6.
If the BB folds and the cutoff gets excited, go with it. They have a J.

In practice though, I raise all-in :lol:

cheers

Glenn
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 01:45 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
ALL IN.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 10:40 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
All in
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 11:51 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
of this type of message. More than anything I am struggling with how to bet and when and WHY. If its already at PSO I haven't found it.

I wish, I wish - I could have someone sit over my shoulder while I play and challenge me - "why did you do that?" "What are you hoping to get with that?" "That was the wrong play and here's why..." This thread lets me see what others are thinking instead of just watching them pull my chips into their pile and realizing that I made the wrong choice.

While I've learned a feel for position and a feel for reading the table I remain completely lost with consistent betting that pulls in information and then, most importantly, being able to interpret what I just learned.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 01:27 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstrsig
While I've learned a feel for position and a feel for reading the table I remain completely lost with consistent betting that pulls in information and then, most importantly, being able to interpret what I just learned.
Good point.
I'd guess 95% of the tuition here at PSO is geared to limit poker.
95% of the play is big-bet ......
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 03:36 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
I'm raisin double the pot - about 6K. That should see off the cuttoff with his flush draw or AJ, KJ. If the BB calls then I would expect to be toast against a trips. If he calls, I check fold the turn (unless its another heart) and i've still got 4K to take advantage of him overprotectin his blind!

Regards
HH
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 04:11 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstrsig
of this type of message. More than anything I am struggling with how to bet and when and WHY. If its already at PSO I haven't found it.
If you don't know how much to bet, then usually bet the full pot size. It will most probably be the right bet to make. You need a specific reason to bet more or less than this. If the pot bet is a significant portion of your stack then make the bet an all-in one instead. With this AA hand, on the flop with this amount left to be bet. The proper size bet, if the AA decided to raise in response to the cut-offs bet, then the proper raise should be all-in as a pot raise would take half of the remaining stacks.

I will give my thoughts later. I thought I had 2 possible actions available to me in this spot, with raising all-in 1 of them. This is usually the correct thing to do in this spot because we should play this close situation committally due to the depth of money. However, I did not do this, though I still played committally. I took the alternative option, though I was unsure which one to take at the time. There was confusion there whether the alternative was a viable option or whether it was a mistake.

I have since found out that the action I did take was a viable choice in this spot, though the reasons were slightly different from what I thought at the time. Now, all I need to do is disect this hand for the main reasons why it is a viable option in this spot, so I can know when it becomes an option from the usual all-in raise in future situations. Nobody has yet suggested this alternative action, that I actually took, and the reasons why it is a viable option in this spot.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 04:22 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatchetHarry
I'm raisin double the pot - about 6K. That should see off the cuttoff with his flush draw or AJ, KJ.
The 6k amount is a bad amount with these stack/pot positions. If you do raise, then it must be all-in. Why would you want to see off top pair? Do you not like doubling through? Doubling through should always be your aim if you are going to play a close situation such as this, otherwise the risk/reward isn't worth it. I think raising all-in here and having the cut-off fold all hands that you have beat, is a poor reward for the risk I am taking. If I'm taking that risk then I want a chance that my opponent will call and double me through with hands that I bury.

I have also been informed that an all-in raise by me would not get a good player to fold the flush draw due to the math and psychology reasons in this example. Though I have still not figured out why that would be the case. When I do, I am sure it will be very instuctive for future situations.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 04:29 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatchetHarry
I'm raisin double the pot - about 6K. That should see off the cuttoff with his flush draw or AJ, KJ. If the BB calls then I would expect to be toast against a trips. If he calls, I check fold the turn (unless its another heart) and i've still got 4K to take advantage of him overprotectin his blind!

Regards
HH
Also, in the unlikely event your opponent calls your flop raise, then you have to call if they bet all-in on the turn regardless of whether the 4th heart came, due to the situation created by your flop bet size. However, it is much more likely they will just shove all-in on the flop in response to your raise, with any hand they will go with, with or without a 6, so you still have to call.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 04:35 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
Quote:
I have also been informed that an all-in raise by me would not get a good player to fold the flush draw due to the math and psychology reasons in this example.
A "good" player wouldn't be in there with a flush draw since you have the A of suit. This is no-limit after all.

Your pre-flop raise should have been greater as well so that these questions wouldn't have come up. With such a small raise, they think of it almost as limping because it's not a big % of your stack. If they can afford to call with a 6 in their hand in NLHE, you undercharged them. Otherwise you have way the best.

I still see no alternative to going all in.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 05:08 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles
The 6k amount is a bad amount with these stack/pot positions. If you do raise, then it must be all-in. Why would you want to see off top pair? Do you not like doubling through? Doubling through should always be your aim if you are going to play a close situation such as this, otherwise the risk/reward isn't worth it. .
LOL - I know i'm the twelth man here but.....

With the possibility that the cuttoff is as likely holding a flush draw as top pair, I'm sticking with the raise. Outcomes would be as follows.

BB calls or re-raises all in - Cuttoff folds or calls. I fold to the re-raise or fold to any bet on the turn. Still got enough to win me the tourny.

BB folds, Cuttoff calls. If a 4th heart falls I agree I have to call all in (on the basis that he would equally go all in with top pair, being the value in the pot) but should he have the goods, then I'll be happy that i'm getting value from his bets any time I play against him.

BB folds, Cuttoff raises all in. I call and if my read was right and he wins, I refer to the above.

With a pair on the board, I'm not definate I'm ahead. In such a case, you can take the pot with any 2 cards and i'm not in the least bit phased by this. As i'll get em back in the long run.

Cheers
HH
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 10:27 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer
Quote:
I have also been informed that an all-in raise by me would not get a good player to fold the flush draw due to the math and psychology reasons in this example.
A "good" player wouldn't be in there with a flush draw since you have the A of suit. This is no-limit after all.
A good player wouldn't typically limp in from the cut-off in an unopened pot, so that gives us some clue about his possible ability. If they can limp from the cut-off then they can be in there with a flush draw. maybe good player shouldn't have been the word to use. Maybe I should have said a typical or a lot of players or something. The fact that he bet the full pot into the preflop raiser, putting me in the middle makes a flush draw his most likely hand. A lot of players do this. Personally, I generally wouldn't.

With this deep money, a flush draw is very possible I think. Especially with that texture board and his pre-flop and flop action.

A non-nut flush draw also gives more reason to bet 3-way, in order to try and get headsup.

Quote:
Your pre-flop raise should have been greater as well so that these questions wouldn't have come up.
Couldn't disagree more. Explain what I gain from overbetting the pot preflop? Why so fearful?

Quote:
With such a small raise, they think of it almost as limping because it's not a big % of your stack.
Why does that matter? I'm building a pot with the best hand. With deep money, the main decisions come later in the hand.

Quote:
If they can afford to call with a 6 in their hand in NLHE, you undercharged them. Otherwise you have way the best.
If they can afford to call with a 6 in hand then it is because the money is deep enough. It shouldn't usually alter my bet size preflop. It should maybe alter how I play it post flop.

I wasn't that concerned about being beat on this flop. The BB was more of a worry, though again, only a slight one on this texture flop.

The fact that the cut-off bet into me with this depth of money, putting me in the middle was a good indication they never had a big hand. A big hand would have much more likely, in general, checked to me in order to put the BB in the middle after I bet. As a preflop raiser usually would bet this flop 3 handed.

The only worry from that sense was that the cut-off was a bad enough player to bet into the raiser with a big hand. Which was a possibility due to the limp in teh cut-off preflop.

Quote:
I still see no alternative to going all in.
Which is why I posted the hand. To see if anybody would, and for their reasons for taking the alternative action.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 10:39 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
With a pair on the board, I'm not definate I'm ahead. In such a case, you can take the pot with any 2 cards and i'm not in the least bit phased by this. As i'll get em back in the long run.
But your raise on the flop takes 2/3 of your stack. When you raise this much and don't see a showdown, it is a serious error. Which is why you should go all-in rather than bet this amount. If your opponents see you bet this much and then fold, they will be expecting to get all your money everytime you play. It is quite a tell. They will be playing back a lot also.
 
Old
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Tue Nov 12, 2002, 01:07 AM
(#18)
Deleted user
IF you are looking for an alternative to the allin, which I think is the proper play to move any flush draws that are out there, then I would suggest calling the cutoff and calling again on the later streets. If he's good enough to bet out with a 6, he has you trapped, otherwise you own him as he will probably try to bet you off what he will think is the nut flush draw and bluff off most of his chips with his likely jack or a pocket pair. If he puts you on the flush draw after the call, he should properly put it alllin to distort your pot odds if no heart comes on the turn. If he has a jack you are ahuge favorite.

This is a real good reason for slowplaying the AA. Since you have the ace of hearts, even if a heart comes on the turn you have some outs even if he is pushing a flush draw. The only hands you really do not want to see is JJ or any random six, and those hands of course are not folding to your allin bet anyway.

However, I would put it in representing the flush draw and hope that someone is in there with a J or some other pocket pair and figures I am trying to buy it with my 15 outs (x2 assuming 2 overs as well). MOst of your big pots are won big hand vs. big hand or big hand vs. big mistake. Let's hope this is the latter and not the former lol.
 
Old
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Tue Nov 12, 2002, 04:32 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
Explain what I gain from overbetting the pot preflop? Why so fearful?
This is NL not PL. "Overbetting the pot" has much less meaning here. It's not about being "fearful" but about getting those who make the mistake of calling with the worst of it to call as much as you can get. No Limit is not about winning the chips in the pots, it's about winning the chips in the stacks. Pot Limit is much more nuanced but when you bet in No Limit you want to be called whereas in Limit you want them to fold and give you the dead money already in the pot. Pot Limit is about building the pot up to where it can be No Limit later in the hand - in Limit there is no "later", the betting is over on the flop.

The "absurdum" of course is to go all in rather than just somewhat "overbet the pot". Finding how much they will call (mistakenly) is what this is all about. This is where the now-famous "table dynamics" comes in.

What I was trying to point out is that if you'd raised more and been called you'd know you were against AA/KK or against a fool, who will as the old saying goes soon be parted from his money. At present you still harbo(u)r doubts.
 
Old
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Thu Nov 14, 2002, 06:15 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by apryllshowers
IF you are looking for an alternative to the allin, which I think is the proper play to move any flush draws that are out there, then I would suggest calling the cutoff and calling again on the later streets. If he's good enough to bet out with a 6, he has you trapped, otherwise you own him as he will probably try to bet you off what he will think is the nut flush draw and bluff off most of his chips with his likely jack or a pocket pair. If he puts you on the flush draw after the call, he should properly put it alllin to distort your pot odds if no heart comes on the turn. If he has a jack you are a huge favorite.
Did you mis-type that or do you really think a good player would bet into the raiser with a 6? I wouldn't have thought that, unless there were psychology reasons for it between players that know each others game.

On that depth of money, in general, I would expect a good player to check if they had the 6, in order to put the BB in the middle when the button bets, as they surely will. Then moving all-in in response.

Anyway, I figured the alternative in this spot was to flat call and then move-in on the turn if the flush misses.

My reasons for that were as follows:

An all-in bet would have been overbetting the pot by 2X. I could not see such an overbet getting called by any hand that I had buried, only those that buried me. especially as we could eliminate big pairs from their hand.

If I thought I could get called by a worse hand, then I would have moved in as usual. For example, if I had a better hand than 1 pair, or if they could have had a big pair themselves, or if my all-in would have been for a smaller amount etc.

As it was, I didn't like the risk/reward of the all-in. Only winning what was in the pot when ahead, and busting out when behind. I thought that my best chance of doubling through against hands I buried would be if I flat called with the intention of playing for all my chips on the turn if the flush missed. This had the benefit that I still busted against hands that buried me, but I also had a better chance of doubling through against hands that I bury as they may carry through and bet all-in on turn.

Another benefit was that, according to their action and the narrower range of hands that I could put them on due to the way they played preflop, there was a strong possibility that their most likely hand was a flush draw. So, by flat calling, not only do I have a better chance to double through, I also have an opportunity to push all-in on the turn if they check and the flush misses. Meaning that I will win those times they fold and a flush would have arrived on the river. If they do play for all their chips with the flush draw on the turn, then I am getting it all-in as a big favourite to double through.

My plan was to flat call with intention of shoving in on turn:

When turn misses flush and they check, I move in.
When turn misses flush and they move-in, I call.
When turn hits the flush and they check, I take the free card.
When turn hits the flush and they bet all-in, I can safely fold.

Also, by calling, I can get away when the BB was checking a monster to me.

So basically, I think it was an exception because I was unlikely to double through against any hand I had beat if I moved in on the flop, but I would bust if I was beat. By calling, I increase my chances of doubling through when I have the best hand as they may go with it by shoving all-in.

When they don't shove it all-in by betting the turn themselves, then I either benefit by going all-in on the turn, having them fold, winning those times when a flush would have come on the river had we got it all-in on flop. Or I benefit by going all-in and having them call with the flush draw, being a big favourite to double through.

So basically, in that particular spot, by just calling, I will double through more often whether against a hand I bury or a flush draw, and be eliminated less often when against just a flush draw.

I still haven't worked out why a player, good or bad, would call my all-in raise on the flop with just a flush draw, but I have been told that the flush draw wasn't going anywhere on that flop, for psychology and math reasons.

I also haven't worked out what the really key reasons were why calling in this spot is a viable alternative to moving all-in on the flop as usual. I would like to know when this alternative would be viable in the future, in general, rather than a mistake. I haven't had much time to figure it out yet. For example, is it because we can get away when the flush comes, and win more often when it misses on the turn. Or is it because we are more likely to double through by calling compared to all-in on flop, due to reduced range of hands opponent could have and size of all-in overbet. Or is it because of being in the middle on the flop, (I doubt it on that depth of money). Or is it becasue we are pretty sure to be against a flush draw in that situation based on the action up to that point. Or is it because the flush draw wasn't gonna be folding to our all-in. Or is it a combination of all those. Geez, my head hurts No wonder I've been avoiding working it out.

The result of the hand:

I called. BB folded. Turn was a blank. Cut-off checked. I moved-in for 2X the pot. Cut-off called with king high flush draw. River missed. I double through So, in that particular situation, I got it all-in as a 4-1 favourite to double through rather than 2-1. A g00t result
 

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