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Should i have shoved?

 
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Should i have shoved? - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 02:39 PM
(#1)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
Cheers,should i have shoved here,was short,think i had played 3 hands up untill here,and that was in the first 10 handsdealt,i know A2 s ,isnt aye monster,but were the best cards i had been dealt for 30 hands,and felt,my draws were plentiful,DOGG GONE
Transcript for your last 1 games requested by BARRYDOGG378

*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #63852721636: Tournament #397948293, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2011/06/28 6:11:35 NZT [2011/06/27 14:11:35 ET]
Table '397948293 39' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Juss Folld (2565 in chips)
Seat 2: boom187 (11225 in chips)
Seat 3: thatsmysky (590 in chips)
Seat 5: andreja85 (1645 in chips)
Seat 6: Da Sens Fan (7655 in chips)
Seat 7: justin306 (1647 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: Beck_rp (1345 in chips)
Seat 9: BARRYDOGG378 (900 in chips)
Juss Folld: posts the ante 25
boom187: posts the ante 25
thatsmysky: posts the ante 25
andreja85: posts the ante 25
Da Sens Fan: posts the ante 25
justin306: posts the ante 25
Beck_rp: posts the ante 25
BARRYDOGG378: posts the ante 25
andreja85: posts small blind 125
Da Sens Fan: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BARRYDOGG378 [2d Ad]
justin306: folds
Beck_rp: folds
boom187 said, "vn"
Da Sens Fan said, "thx"
BARRYDOGG378: raises 625 to 875 and is all-in
Juss Folld has timed out
Juss Folld: folds
Juss Folld is sitting out
boom187: folds
Juss Folld has returned
swaaapy is connected
thatsmysky: folds
andreja85: raises 745 to 1620 and is all-in
Da Sens Fan: folds
Uncalled bet (745) returned to andreja85
*** FLOP *** [3c 6d 8h]
*** TURN *** [3c 6d 8h] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [3c 6d 8h 6h] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
andreja85: shows [Jh Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Sixes)
BARRYDOGG378: shows [2d Ad] (a pair of Sixes)
andreja85 collected 2200 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2200 | Rake 0
Board [3c 6d 8h 6h Kd]
Seat 1: Juss Folld folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: boom187 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: thatsmysky (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: andreja85 (small blind) showed [Jh Jc] and won (2200) with two pair, Jacks and Sixes
Seat 6: Da Sens Fan (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: justin306 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Beck_rp folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: BARRYDOGG378 showed [2d Ad] and lost with a pair of Sixes



If you have any questions, please contact us at "PokerStars Support" <support@pokerstars.com>

Last edited by TOO2COO; Mon Jun 27, 2011 at 02:50 PM.. Reason: Removal of Email Addy
 
Old
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 03:36 PM
(#2)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Hi Barry, I would definitely shove here with A2s as it's unlikely your going to wake up with a bigger hand before the blinds hit and your stack is crippled. You should be open-shoving extremely wide in this situation and hoping for live cards.

You seem to be posting a lot of hands where your stack size is tiny in relation to the blinds... so instead of looking at hands like these I would suggest you look at your game as a whole, and work out the leaks in your game that is causing you to become so short in chips.

 
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YES - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 04:14 PM
(#3)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
I play super tight,to tight i feel,and when i do get monster holds,they get cracked of lately,or very scarey boards,have a lot to learn here,betting as well,havent really got aye glue,how to bet,only monster holds,dogg gone
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 04:50 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,800
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
If you're going to play a hand, you need to be pushing... BUT... with this being a PSO game (assuming so), since it's ace/rag and you're probably not at positive points yet. If it's me, I'm mucking it. I'd rather wait another time around the table unless I get a better hand, or I get into + points territory.
If it's a std MTT, I'm shoving with it.

in the PSO games, patience and getting positive points is the key.
 
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My play hasnt change - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 04:58 PM
(#5)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
The only way my play has changed from the first 3 weeks,is ive thrown 2 monster holds pre flop,1 won and loss,my monster holds just havent been holding,getting cracked, by lose callers,what can i do?
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 05:12 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
PSO Event, or "normal" pay structure event?

If this is a PSO game:

the fact you can get at LEAST another orbit or 2 out of your stack even if you fold your blinds this time means you should FOLD. A single orbit of play, combined with judicious clock use, should result in a roughly 50 to 150 spot "ladder climb" (depending upon how many left when you start the ladder climb). This is often the diference between plus and minus points in an event.

^ that is "goofy thinking" for a regular MTT though, and grows TOTALLY out of the PSO scoring system, and the fact your "month" is made up of cumulative scores. In that dynamic, multiple SMALL point increases (or minimized point DECREASES) out weigh the benefits of a large single event "score".

In a REGULAR MTT, yes you should jam here.
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes!

You are UTG, and going to be "forced" to post nearly 1/3rd your stack on thenext hand.

The Pre-flop pot is worth 575, so even if everyone FOLDS to your shove you'd be pretty happy about picking up a 60%+ chip increase.

PLUS! Da Sens Fan in in the BB

(Ok, I'm only semi-serious on this one, but it IS a factor if this is a PSO event. Da Sens is a "serious" player of the league, and he cares about his score. This vastly increases your fold equity against him in a PSO event, and one of your biggest "fears" when short stack shoving lite is that the BB will be so loose as to call and run you down. This threat is lessened with Da Sens in the BB in a PSO event.)

If this is NOT a PSO event though, I'd have to ask you "Why is your stack so small here"?

If you've allowed yourself to blind down to this point, then you probably should have made a stand a bit sooner. Why?

Your shove now lays the BB under 2 to 1 odds to call (BB must call 625 for a chance to win 1450). 2 to 1 is a " magic price" to lay to someone for all your chips, bcause it allows them correct odds to call you even if they believe THEY have just 2 live under cards (to your un-paired hand).

A call is FINE if you happen to hold a strong-ish hand; you WANT to double not just win the blinds and antes. The problem with this is that how often are you holding a hand more like the one here A2s? Are you really PLEASED to get called by something like 56o? If you ARE, then consider this...

The fundemental Theorem of poker states (in part): Any time you make a play which causes an opponent to act in exactly the manner he would have had all the cards been known, you LOSE VALUE.

For short stack situations, this means (ideally) you would like to AVOID waiting until the "correct" call price range of anyone at the table is so wide as to include just "live cards".

In the A2s v. 56o hand situation I posit above, this would be a 52/48 near RACE for the 56o to call a shove by you. Is this want you want to have happen for your entire tourney "life"?

If you were NOT laying such "fat" pot odds to a BB, is it very likely you get called by a hand that is this WEAK, yet still close a race to you? Probably not...

Yes, on the 1 hand you ARE "ahead", albeit slightly, but if you LOSE you are OUT...you get 1 chance. Do you want to risk your entire tourney "life" on that fact? I'm not asking if you MUST do it (you do), I'm asking if you'd PREFER to do it...because it was YOUR CHOICE to wait for this point before making your "stand"...See?

For a bit of help in sharpening your timing for all-in "stands", I would suggest you google "Harrington M Zones", "First in Vigorish in Poker", and "Push/fold charts in Poker". Read up a bit on this stuff, and I think you may find it helpful.

Last edited by JDean; Mon Jun 27, 2011 at 05:15 PM..
 
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Barrydogg378 - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 05:23 PM
(#7)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
I was gold star before i stopped depositing,have made just over 9000 vpp since ive been at stars,so ive played aye bit,but not this structure,still getting use to it,DOGG GONE
 
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Im amazed - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 05:27 PM
(#8)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
Im amazed at how many player call here when way behind,on the flops turns and rivers,i really cant work out players thinking at times,or even if they are thinking,or just playing blind,crazy,DOGG GONE
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 08:49 PM
(#9)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Between Sens in the BB and thatsmysky on the button, this is absolutely a shove! Once antes come into play there is a ton of dead money in the pot AND the negative score you get is nothing terrible. And with under 4 BBs and a suited, connected ace you're in a good spot. Also you're in early position, with a very tight image (look at your stack) so you will get plenty of respect. And since almost everyone else has a tiny stack as well, calling your shove can really hurt them. There are two big stacks at your table and one of them is Sens. You only really have to get through boom187.

You have an excellent semi-bluffing hand. You have 2 cards to a nut flush, 2 cards to a wheel , and an ace. If you get called by a hand like JJ, you still have your aces as outs (~30%). If you get called by something like AK you can still pair your 2 (~25%). If you get called by AA, yeah, you're screwed (~11%). By shoving an ace like this you rarely find yourself worse than a 3 to 1 underdog if called.

In this spot I'd probably shove A2s-A5s, ATs+, AQ+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 55+. A2s is near the bottom of my range here, but it's still in there.

Remember, the goal is to take down the blinds and antes because they will add a huge percentage to your stack. Winning a showdown is a backup plan. Also, since you have an ace it makes it less likely that some one else has AA.

I think you played it right. You just got unlucky and another short stack woke up with a hand he was willing to risk his chips on.

If you let the blinds pass through you you will lose all of your fold equity and really will have to sit around waiting for a premium and pray. And if you double up then, you'd have less chips than you would by simply taking down this pot without a showdown. If you let the BB pass you will have 600 chips before posting the SB. Assuming same blind level, and it folds to you, there will again be 575 in the pot and you will have 450 chips behind. The BB would contribute just 325 chips, calling about 100% of the time, So you will be able to win a pot that is 575+450+325=1350 chips (from the button you can double up to 1475). By pushing your 875 into the 575 pot right now, you can take down a pot that puts you at 1450, AND if called you have the opportunity to win a bigger one. If you fold here and when you're in the BB or SB, or button or whatever and someone makes a raise that puts you all in you have to put all your chips into CALLING to try and double up. This gives you only one way to win...and win a very small pot.

Remember, they can't see your cards! People love putting other players on AK/AQ.

Yes, sometimes you'll bust here, but enough of the time you'll win the pot either by taking it down or winning a showdown. This increase in chips should give you a better pointsEV than simply folding until you blind out at -.5 or whatever.

This is all in general. Depending on a lot of factors you may want to be more or less aggressive with your shoving ranges. Factors include players at your table, your standing in PSO, your image (high-ranked players are given soooo much credit for monster hands by other points players), and the time of the month.

Long post and I didn't really say much, but I definitely like you jamming here.

Also, JDean, it's 58/42 between A2s and 56o. 52/48 between A2o and 56s.
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 09:17 PM
(#10)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Ok Dogg,

I will offer you my words of wisdom, which will no longer be words of wisdom next month, when everything changes.

3 hands in the first ten hands is too loose for PSO. Too early to risk any of your chips without a monster and even then the danger of getting sucked out by someone willing to risk all their chips on ATC is high.

At the point you are at I am doing what Jdean and JKW advise and that is fold, if it is PSO.

Its all change next month man,so keep learning and you will get there.

TC
 
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Hands i play - Mon Jun 27, 2011, 09:44 PM
(#11)
BARRYDOGG378's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 132
BronzeStar
The 3 hands i played in first 10 hands were,QQ,JJ,and KQs,not bad starting cards i feel,and got terrible flops to the lot,AK on flops i had pairs,and AA ON FLOP when holding,KQdi,with no di in flop,should i have played those cards?
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 10:08 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,800
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BARRYDOGG378 View Post
The 3 hands i played in first 10 hands were,QQ,JJ,and KQs,not bad starting cards i feel,and got terrible flops to the lot,AK on flops i had pairs,and AA ON FLOP when holding,KQdi,with no di in flop,should i have played those cards?
We'd need chip stacks, positions, etc... to determine it, also reads on opponents. Those will be the determining factors as to whether it was correct or not.
 
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Mon Jun 27, 2011, 10:44 PM
(#13)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Just remember, is there always an ace on the flop when you have an ace in your hand? Or on every flop with an ace do you hold one? If so, lucky you. If not, why should that mean your opponent always has an ace? Have you noticed that when we choose to "put our opponent on a hand" we always seem to choose a hand that makes us feel the best about our decision? That's why we want to range our opponents. They don't always have the top or bottom of their range. Maybe we have a hand that beats 40% of their range based on how they've played the hand or maybe we're ahead of 85%. We want to consider those possibilities rather than just put them on a hand we're either beating or losing to 100% of the time.
 

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